Ponz Says He Can Refute Ponziani!

ponz, why you simply didn't captured the bishop on f1?

It's White to move in the given final position

Of course, I had good reasons not to simply capture the bishop on f1. 

Maybe, my worth opponent will explain why?

But he moved his king rather than capture it. I guess because it will remove the pin which stops white doing anything.

So how is it going? You say you should be able to win all games with right play. Are you close to it yet?

For this to be the case you should after some practise be able to win against a GM without engine help. I seriously dobut you have found a way to refute it but this is really interesting. Some of the lines reminds me of the Parham attack lolz.

theliten as I posted before I said I might refute the Ponziani with tongue in cheek.  Also a line which avoids any refutation starting with 3. c3  Nf6 I will diagram.

White simply plays 4. d3 with a equal game.

theliten   in any event I have failed to refute the Ponziani as I am playing 7 games and have not won all 7 games.  Already one player [a random] got a draw.

So, it means that black have advantage if white chooses the Ponziani, uh? In a really good opening, as white always start the game, he should have a small advantage with best play for both sides. 4.d3 looks kinda passive in the Ponziani.

The term "refute" an opening is ambigous and different players have their own ideas what "refute" means in this context.

Some will say you must be able to show a forced draw against and opening to refute it.

Some will say you only have to show a forced draw against one of the variations of the opening.

Some will say you only have to show one variation is even or equal chances.

Some will say there has to be a forced line where Black [in this case] gets the advantage

Some will say you must be able to win against a grand master without the use of chess engines.

There is no consenus.

The_Worsiets   No, it does not mean Black has the advantage if White Chooses the Ponziani.  First the 4. d3 line is completely equal.

Second this Fraser variation is the variation which gives White the most problems.  However we are sorting it out.  For example we know not to play 12. Qa6   we are studying 12. Qd5  also there was an interesting line with 12. Na3!    What will probably happen is White will know what to do with the help of these 7 games and with the help of previous analysis.

So, no, we have not gone in the Ponziani and there is no refutation.

There is one line which Phren  likes for Black and it is this line

If you can force a draw at worst, I think you can claim to have found a refuting line :)

theliten     I cannot force a draw at worse as this line is not fully tested. Still 4 games to go.

Maybe after My games are over - improvements will be found for Black and White.  

Besides, to me, a refuting line is one that gives Black [in this case] a big advantage.  

You are choosing one of the definitions of "refutation" and I choose another.

By the way, the Fraser Defense is not my line. Brian Wall is the advocate for this line for many years. I am just trying to improve on some older analysis.

bongcloudtw   I did think of that general idea but it does not seem to work in practice. For one thing my pawn on a7 can become very weak and at the right time Black can do a minor combo to go after this weakness.

The position is a lot more complicated than it looks on the surface but I am convinced it is a draw.

However, having said that-- it would be wonderful if someone or even a group would analyze this endgame to see if either side had winning chances.  Any good analysis please post here with moves and a diagram.

Can you really carry out that plan though? I mean, for example something like 1...f6 2.a6 Kg6 3.Rh1 Kf7 4.b6! cb 5.c5! and White wins.

Have an interesting new game going with FM Bluebird1964. It is different from the other games as White is trying 8. Be3.  Also interesting is I just masde an "undeveloping move" for my 9th move.  

Probably best to refrain from discussing the game until a few more moves are played...

Thanks Main_Novelty for giving one of the pitfalls if Black tries too hard to win.  There are also pitfalls for White in this interesting end position!

bongcloudftw  I am not sure what you are saying?  Do you mean you think in that position that you can win with Black against a strong centaur player?

update on 3 of 4 games left

FM Bluebird1964 vs ponz111

FZN JMB1020 vs pon

z111

Expertise87 vs ponz111   [this is 2nd game--game with Bluebird also 2nd game]