Pre-move remove!

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Avatar of piya_is_my_name

KyanBui wrote:

What do we want? Remove the premoves!

When do we want it? Never!

I'm all for it, as it creates a precedent for our RoboPlayer 2020 that I mentioned above. I tried to entice arguments against, probing whether there would be any - looks like not so far. Does anyone here dislike premoves? You represent the whole chess community, so this may be the last time we're asking. This will be the evidence in any disputes that may be started related to using robots OTB.

Avatar of piya_is_my_name

Brixed wrote:

If you don't like pre-moves, simply play at a timer that negates the impact of pre-moves. (A long timer, for example. Or an increment.)

 

That's a workaround that creates another problem (game length), while it's not solving the original problem (time advantage for premoving player). Perhaps deducting a second of time from premoving player (on the account of his laziness to use his hand to execute a move) would be a slightly better solution.

Avatar of markkoso

pre moves don't have anything to do with cheating, whatsoever, people using engines does.

Avatar of piya_is_my_name

Does anyone else have anything to add related to this? @666Buffchix, do you have anything (other than off-topic statements such as those above, that you made)?

Avatar of piya_is_my_name

markkoso wrote:

pre moves don't have anything to do with cheating, whatsoever, people using engines does.

Isn't premoving mechanism also an engine? I see multiple ways that it can be abused.

Avatar of piya_is_my_name

666Buffchix wrote:

markkoso wrote:

pre moves don't have anything to do with cheating, whatsoever, people using engines does.

Yeah okk brah, well you kknow what they say.."he who smelt it, dealt it"

What do you mean by this?

Avatar of markkoso

mynameagain wrote:

markkoso wrote:

pre moves don't have anything to do with cheating, whatsoever, people using engines does.

Isn't premoving mechanism also an engine? I see multiple ways that it can be abused.

It's an automated mechanism but not an engine. Also, it also carries an element of risk that can run into anti-premove traps.

Avatar of piya_is_my_name

markkoso wrote:

mynameagain wrote:

markkoso wrote:

pre moves don't have anything to do with cheating, whatsoever, people using engines does.

Isn't premoving mechanism also an engine? I see multiple ways that it can be abused.

It's an automated mechanism but not an engine. Also, it also carries an element of risk that can run into anti-premove traps.

Being an automated mechanism, it's susceptible to being combined and/or swapped with other automated mechanisms, even without permission or knowledge of game-host (chess.com, in this case).

Avatar of markkoso

piya_is_my_name wrote:

markkoso wrote:

mynameagain wrote:

markkoso wrote:

pre moves don't have anything to do with cheating, whatsoever, people using engines does.

Isn't premoving mechanism also an engine? I see multiple ways that it can be abused.

It's an automated mechanism but not an engine. Also, it also carries an element of risk that can run into anti-premove traps.

Being an automated mechanism, it's susceptible to being combined and/or swapped with other automated mechanisms, even without permission or knowledge of game-host (chess.com, in this case).

ok, so you mean that the premove function can be exploited by code by some kind of bot, I see where you are going with this but it is a technical issue I am not qualified to deal with. I think you could be right but wouldn't normally cheat detection detect it?

Avatar of piya_is_my_name

666Buffchix wrote:

piya_is_my_name wrote:

Does anyone else have anything to add related to this? @666Buffchix, do you have anything (other than off-topic statements such as those above, that you made)?

I was commenting on the nature of what he said as it pertained to his comment though really, Piya, I feeeel your discussion may be better reserved to the Cheating group/forum/whatever it is.

I disagree: the topic is clearly related to premoving functionality, which you, yourself, stated isn't to be associated with cheating. Cheating is not being discussed here.

Avatar of piya_is_my_name

markkoso wrote:

piya_is_my_name wrote:

markkoso wrote:

mynameagain wrote:

markkoso wrote:

pre moves don't have anything to do with cheating, whatsoever, people using engines does.

Isn't premoving mechanism also an engine? I see multiple ways that it can be abused.

It's an automated mechanism but not an engine. Also, it also carries an element of risk that can run into anti-premove traps.

Being an automated mechanism, it's susceptible to being combined and/or swapped with other automated mechanisms, even without permission or knowledge of game-host (chess.com, in this case).

ok, so you mean that the premove function can be exploited by code by some kind of bot, I see where you are going with this but it is a technical issue I am not qualified to deal with. I think you could be right but wouldn't normally cheat detection detect it?

I don't see how, as such code would execute on client machine, where the only instruction that the cheat-detection-spruced-up server would be receiving is which move to make. Since he server already ignores abnormal speed due to premoves, it has no way to tell what/who may be generating (coming up with) those moves. It can certainly log suspicion about how those moves compare with known skill of assumed player (which can later be examined), but it has no right to interrupt the game. meanwhile, game gets unfairly won, while any potential remarks derived from manual analysis of captured logs (note that this is a time-consuming task) can be argued agaist (and refuted).

Avatar of piya_is_my_name

markkoso wrote:

piya_is_my_name wrote:

markkoso wrote:

mynameagain wrote:

markkoso wrote:

pre moves don't have anything to do with cheating, whatsoever, people using engines does.

Isn't premoving mechanism also an engine? I see multiple ways that it can be abused.

It's an automated mechanism but not an engine. Also, it also carries an element of risk that can run into anti-premove traps.

Being an automated mechanism, it's susceptible to being combined and/or swapped with other automated mechanisms, even without permission or knowledge of game-host (chess.com, in this case).

ok, so you mean that the premove function can be exploited by code by some kind of bot, I see where you are going with this but it is a technical issue I am not qualified to deal with. I think you could be right but wouldn't normally cheat detection detect it?

... therefore, it's much easier to eliminate this aid altogether and go back naturale (by hand). you premove in your head all you wand, but do use your hand to make that move and do use your hand to switch the clock (instead of having a machine switch it for you the very millisecond you drop the moved piece). do you not see the unfairness in these 2 aided operations?

Avatar of piya_is_my_name

markkoso wrote:

piya_is_my_name wrote:

markkoso wrote:

mynameagain wrote:

markkoso wrote:

pre moves don't have anything to do with cheating, whatsoever, people using engines does.

Isn't premoving mechanism also an engine? I see multiple ways that it can be abused.

It's an automated mechanism but not an engine. Also, it also carries an element of risk that can run into anti-premove traps.

Being an automated mechanism, it's susceptible to being combined and/or swapped with other automated mechanisms, even without permission or knowledge of game-host (chess.com, in this case).

ok, so you mean that the premove function can be exploited by code by some kind of bot, I see where you are going with this but it is a technical issue I am not qualified to deal with. I think you could be right but wouldn't normally cheat detection detect it?

the app is quoting previous comments in an ugly way

Avatar of piya_is_my_name

666Buffchix wrote:

piya_is_my_name wrote:
666Buffchix wrote:
piya_is_my_name wrote:

Does anyone else have anything to add related to this? @666Buffchix, do you have anything (other than off-topic statements such as those above, that you made)?

I was commenting on the nature of what he said as it pertained to his comment though really, Piya, I feeeel your discussion may be better reserved to the Cheating group/forum/whatever it is.

I disagree: the topic is clearly related to premoving functionality, which you, yourself, stated isn't to be associated with cheating. Cheating is not being discussed here.

You yourself stated premoves are cheating. Try the Pi-moves option.

That was misconstrued. I was responding to several racist and derogatory comments that you made. I see that you calmed down a little; that's good, sir. xoxo

Avatar of piya_is_my_name

KyanBui wrote:

My opinion is that premoves are only useful in bullet, however you can always fall into traps by your opponent. If you like premoves, use them. If you don't, unlucky.

Until somebody figures out how to conditionally execute whole-games premoves. And, witnessing technology advances, it's not a matter of "if", but "when".

Avatar of Pulpofeira

Wouldn't that mean chess is solved?

Avatar of SmyslovFan
Poorboynj wrote:

When is this site going to remove the pre move option. Certainly helps the cheaters/engines on here.

As far as I know, premove is something that engines CANNOT use! Kinda ruins the argument.

Avatar of SmyslovFan
catdogorb wrote:
SmyslovFan wrote:
Poorboynj wrote:

When is this site going to remove the pre move option. Certainly helps the cheaters/engines on here.

As far as I know, premove is something that engines CANNOT use! Kinda ruins the argument.

And, since they can move so quickly anyway, it would be useless in almost every case.

Just the opposite, it is one advantage that humans have over engine users. It's a very small edge, since as you point out, engines can move much faster than humans. But, if the engine user is entering the moves manually, a really fast human may survive long enough to win on time in some cases.

Avatar of Killer_of_Strategies

If the GMs play using premove because we do not?

Avatar of piya_is_my_name

Using premoves online just makes you believe that you're faster than you actually are.