If white touches a piece and makes an illigal move, he still has to move the piece. So in position one he would have to move his king to a bad square. In diagram two, there is no legal move with the bishop so he can just move another piece.
Question about otb chess rules
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ok, thanks for the time comment.
So black would not have to resign in the second diagram, but can just play a different piece?
Vivinski wrote:
ok, thanks for the time comment.
So black would not have to resign in the second diagram, but can just play a different piece?
Correct.
See Edward Winter's Chess Note 4386 for a trick that would have been relevant under old rules in situation 2 put forward by Vivinski.
http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/winter22.html#4386._Skulduggery
May 10, 2012
0
#6
Shadowknight911 wrote:
plus the opponent gets extra time added on their clock (2 minutes perhaps)
Not quite. The two minute addition only applies if the player makes an illegal move. If a player touches the piece with the intent to move, and there are no legal moves, he is not obligated to make any move, and the opponent does not get the two minute bonus. If he actually proceeds and makes the illegal move, then the opponent gets the bonus time.
In the case of diagram one, the question kind of assumes that the king was the first piece touched while castling. I know I was taught that when castling, you must touch the king first. However, that is not a USCF rule. You may castle by moving the rook, and then moving the king. In diagram 1, if you touch the rook first, and then castle, it would be an illegal move. The opponent gets two minutes, and you would have to move the rook.
May 10, 2012
0
#7
There used to be a rule if you touched a piece you couldn't move, you had to move your king. so, a man had White and a game began thusly. 1.e4 d5. 2. exd5 Qxd5. White planned 3. Nc3 but touched his Queen's Bishop. So, he had to play 3. Ke2. That allows 3...Qe4#
In the rematch his opponent opened 1.e4 then. 1...e5. 2. d4 exd4, 3. Qxd4, and poor Black planned 3...Nc6 but this time touched his Queen's Rook and had to play 3...Ke7 and lost to 4. Qe5#.
The FIDE Laws of Chess says that to castle you have to move the king first, and then the rook. (section 3.8.a)
If you touch the rook first, you must move the rook and may not castle. (section 4.4.b). If you have moved the rook from h1 to f1 before touching the king, then the rook move is finished and cannot changed.
BTW I wonder how you distinguish between a finished rook move from e.g. h1 to f1 and the first part of castling if you allow the rook to be moved first when you castle. If you move the rook to f1 in the position here:
you checkmates black which finish the game. Does that mean that you are not allowed to finish the castling if you intended to mate by castling?
aww-rats wrote:
There used to be a rule if you touched a piece you couldn't move, you had to move your king. so, a man had White and a game began thusly. 1.e4 d5. 2. exd5 Qxd5. White planned 3. Nc3 but touched his Queen's Bishop. So, he had to play 3. Ke2. That allows 3...Qe4#
In the rematch his opponent opened 1.e4 then. 1...e5. 2. d4 exd4, 3. Qxd4, and poor Black planned 3...Nc6 but this time touched his Queen's Rook and had to play 3...Ke7 and lost to 4. Qe5#.
Username/post combo FTW!
May 11, 2012
0
#11
Estragon wrote:
In #1 White must move his King - even if he touched his Rook first in castling illegally, which is normally okay under USCF rules (not sure about FIDE). Castling is considered a King move for these purposes.
Really? I was under the impression that you had to move the first piece you touched. Hmmm.....must find rulebook.....back later.
ETA: I looked it up. Rule 10 I 2. It's quite explicit. If you touch the rook first with the intent to castle, but castling is illegal, you have to move the rook if there is a legal rook move.
boljen wrote:
BTW I wonder how you distinguish between a finished rook move from e.g. h1 to f1 and the first part of castling if you allow the rook to be moved first when you castle. If you move the rook to f1 in the position here:
you checkmates black which finish the game. Does that mean that you are not allowed to finish the castling if you intended to mate by castling?
I think that would be perfectly acceptable, Morphy did it once in a game but that was a long time ago
Vivinski wrote:
boljen wrote:
BTW I wonder how you distinguish between a finished rook move from e.g. h1 to f1 and the first part of castling if you allow the rook to be moved first when you castle. If you move the rook to f1 in the position here:
you checkmates black which finish the game. Does that mean that you are not allowed to finish the castling if you intended to mate by castling?
I think that would be perfectly acceptable, Morphy did it once in a game but that was a long time ago
Yes, it must have been long time ago as Morphy died 128 years ago. So what he did, doesn't say much about current rules.
May 11, 2012
0
#14
Vivinski wrote:
boljen wrote:
BTW I wonder how you distinguish between a finished rook move from e.g. h1 to f1 and the first part of castling if you allow the rook to be moved first when you castle. If you move the rook to f1 in the position here:
you checkmates black which finish the game. Does that mean that you are not allowed to finish the castling if you intended to mate by castling?
I think that would be perfectly acceptable, Morphy did it once in a game but that was a long time ago
Under USCF rules, a move is not complete until the clock is pressed. In the case of moving the rook first in a castling situation, at the time the rook is released, the player's intentions are ambiguous. He might be moving the rook to f1. He might be castling. If he presses the clock, he's moving the rook to f1.
If, on the other hand, he moves the king to g1, then he must be castling. As soon as he lets go of the king, he must castle. Until he lets go, he can make any legal king move, including castling.
Meadmaker wrote:
Vivinski wrote:
boljen wrote:
BTW I wonder how you distinguish between a finished rook move from e.g. h1 to f1 and the first part of castling if you allow the rook to be moved first when you castle. If you move the rook to f1 in the position here:
you checkmates black which finish the game. Does that mean that you are not allowed to finish the castling if you intended to mate by castling?
I think that would be perfectly acceptable, Morphy did it once in a game but that was a long time ago
Under USCF rules, a move is not complete until the clock is pressed. In the case of moving the rook first in a castling situation, at the time the rook is released, the player's intentions are ambiguous. He might be moving the rook to f1. He might be castling. If he presses the clock, he's moving the rook to f1.
If, on the other hand, he moves the king to g1, then he must be castling. As soon as he lets go of the king, he must castle. Until he lets go, he can make any legal king move, including castling.
I see. That is another thing that is different from FIDE rules. If you play under FIDE rules and checkmate your opponent, the game is ended immediately (section 5.1.a.) and you then doesn't have to stop your clock (section 6.7.a). The flag may fall after the checkmating move, and it doesn't matter as the game already is finished.
Diagram one: If white castles in this situation, which would be an 'illegal' move, would white then be force to move his king to a bad square?
Diagram 2: If black touches the pinned bishop and moves he, he can't move the bishop but has touched it, what does this mean for the game?
Or would making these moves suggest that the player is such a beginner that they should make a different move of choice?