Forums

Relationship between Chess rating and I.Q?

Sort:
plutonia
Kingpatzer wrote:

nameno1had -- do you have any actual studies or research to back up your barrage of text? 

I have the feeling that you're really good at parroting research results without actually understanding how "research" is actually done. It would be pretty funny if it turned out you never actually used a statistical program such as SPSS.

 

If you recall the discussion that you and I had some time ago, I explained you that the reason of the lack of hard evidence of chess --> IQ is that there are so many other factors that make it impossible to do this test.

Particularly, practice.

 

A person with a higher chess rating is NOT (necessarily) more intelligent that a person with a lower rating. But you can be sure that if two people put in the same amount of practice (ceteris paribus) the person with highest IQ will end up with a higher rating. Or, same thing, will end up with the same rating with less practice.

 

This is common sense. But I just happen to have found an academic source. A serious study on chess/IQ correlation where they managed to control for practice. The result is that there is a statistically significant positive correlation between IQ and chess skills. PROVEN.

Of course the researchers tell us that practice is still the dominant factor - I had no doubt about it.

 

http://v-scheiner.brunel.ac.uk/bitstream/2438/642/1/Does%20Chess%20Need%20Intelligence-revision-finalINT.pdf

Kingpatzer

I'm familiar with that paper. Did you actually read it? 

 

First, it noted that there is no correllation between intelligence and chess ability in adult players. 

Second, this paper is looking at children.

Third, quoting from the paper, with respect to players with high levels of chess ability (emphasis added):

"The results of the hierarchical regression analysis using age, experience, practice and IQ or intelligence subtests as predictors of the rating are presented in Table 3. The most surprising result was that IQ negatively correlated with chess rating, indicating that the children with lower IQ scores were better players in the elite subsample (see Model 2). Age, on the other hand, did not play a significant role in the chess rating prediction (Model 1 and 2). But practice had a large positive impact on the rating (Model 3). Intelligence had moderately negative and significant influence when practice was not included (Model 2). After the inclusion of practice, intelligence lost some of its negative impact on chess rating. Experience, on the other hand, became a moderately and significantly negative predictor when it was added (Model 4). Again, this probably reflects the association of experience with age (r(23) = .64, p = .001) and practice (r(23) = .46, p = .028) which can also be seen in the relatively high VIF value for experience. Model 3, which included practice, explained altogether 60% of the variance in the chess rating, 30% more than the previous model (Model 2) did with age and IQ. The full model with experience as the final predictor explained 70% of the variance." 

In the discussion section, the authors note that "These results suggest that the differences in the amount of time spent on chess between less and more intelligent players in the elite subsample may not be as large as one would expect if intelligence was particularly strongly correlated with chess skill."

And after pointing out that the population of children studied had fairly impressive IQ scores in general (which would be expected when looking at a sample of players from a country where chess instruction and participation is not mandatory, the authors notes that: "Our study demonstrates that the role of intelligence in the acquisition of chess skill should not be assessed separately from other relevant factors." 

nameno1had

@ kingpatzer

the truth is self evident... it doesnt need studies done by secular scientists who are only interested in parts of it and changing the parts they dont like, to qualify its reality, value, or validity....

reread it, accept it, let it sink in....

SmyslovFan

So, people with elite IQs tend to play chess better than people without "elite" IQs. But there's an element of diminishing returns. The very highest IQs don't necessarily make the very best chess players. 

That makes sense to me.

BabyRhinoRainbow

Since when did taking stats 101 become a prerequisite for understanding science papers?

OR: How low do your standards have to be to think that having used SPSS is a reason to dismiss other people out of hand? I HAVE TAKEN INTRO TO RESEARCH METHODS--FEAR ME!

SmyslovFan

Ummm.....

Understanding statistics is indeed a prerequisite for understanding many science papers.

BabyRhinoRainbow

You'll have to forgive me if your assertion doesn't persuade me?

plutonia
Kingpatzer wrote:

I'm familiar with that paper. Did you actually read it? 

 

 

Yes I read it, and it says exactly what I said in my post.

The correlation in adults is too difficult to be tested because of the incredible variety of other factors. That's why they were forced to look at children. E.g. adults have much broader "starting time" and because of work they might dedicate a completely different amount of time/effort.

Then they clearly explains the reason super-intelligent kids are not great at chess is because they dedicate less effort/time to chess.

 

You cherry picked a few sentences trying to twist the general conclusions of the study.

Oh, and it's funny that you also quoted " the population of children studied had fairly impressive IQ scores in general" but weren't you the one who claimed somewhere that people playing chess are in no way more intelligent than the rest of the general population? :)

plutonia
SmyslovFan wrote:

Ummm.....

Understanding statistics is indeed a prerequisite for understanding many science papers.

Exactly.

nosibalasi

A very interesting article about "IQ and Chess" was written by a chess player and psychological scientist Guillermo Campitelli. Here's the link, and have some fun reading it: http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.php/news/releases/deliberate-practice-necessary-but-not-sufficient.html

conejiux

If we take a look at the top ten of countries with the higher IQ in the world, gonna see that only 2 have known chess GM (well, 3 if we can count Nakamura as Japanese):

Singapore, Korea, Japan, Italy, Iceland, Mongolia, Switzerland, Austria, China, Luxembourg.

kiwi-inactive

I typed up a blog which addresses a very similar topic..

http://www.chess.com/blog/kiwi_overtherainbow/the-invisible-gorilla-formula-to-success

Smile

SmyslovFan
conejiux wrote:

If we take a look at the top ten of countries with the higher IQ in the world, gonna see that only 2 have known chess GM (well, 3 if we can count Nakamura as Japanese):

Singapore, Korea, Japan, Italy, Iceland, Mongolia, Switzerland, Austria, China, Luxembourg.

If this list is true, did you consider looking at nations with a chess culture and GMs per capita? I think there will be a closer correlation that way.

conejiux

This is a list of the IQ averages of countries where chess is popular. From top to bottom:

3.- Japan (IQ 105)
6.- Germany, Italy, Netherlands (IQ 102)
12.- China, UK (IQ100)
16.- Spain (IQ 99)
19.- France, Norway, USA (IQ 98)
28.-  Russia (IQ 96)
34.- Israel (IQ 94)
54.- Cuba (IQ 85)

As you can see, Russia (IQ 96) with the higher number of GMs is at 28. On the other side, Japan (IQ 105) number 3,  hasn't known top players (or have one if we count Nakamura as Japanese. Norway (IQ 98) number 19 on the list, has the chess player with the higher rating of all times.
After this, I don't see any relationship between chess rating and IQ.

nameno1had

you are polluting the pool with non chess player iqs....you need to look specifically at the iqs of the players themselves....otherwise the averages are skewed...also, there isnt any way to account for the sheer chessic bombardment that is wrought upon the minds of kids in russia. i met a young woman from russia who told me they had required chess classes to look for the best chess minds in children to develop them...

Yereslov
mendez1996 wrote:

Conducted by many scientist, I found a study correlating IQ & Chess. This is a list of the IQ averages of countries where chess is popular. From top to bottom:

1 - United States (IQ 139)
2.- Germany, Italy, Netherlands (IQ 58)
3.- China, UK (IQ 47)
4 - Russia (IQ 34)

5- Australia ( IQ 29 ) 


After this, I don't see any relationship between chess rating and IQ.

United States has an average IQ of 139?

LOL

 

This has to be a comedy.

Yereslov

Estimating the IQ of countries is a pointless task. 

Here is a good site that explains all this: 

http://jfmueller.faculty.noctrl.edu/100/correlation_or_causation.htm

nameno1had

Yereslov wrote:

Estimating the IQ of countries is a pointless task. 

Here is a good site that explains all this: 

http://jfmueller.faculty.noctrl.edu/100/correlation_or_causation.htm

i already explained that even if you could, you need to look at the players themselves....looking at the others only askews the data. the national iq averages wont account for popularity or things like the russian programs to isolate chess talent in children...

Yereslov
nameno1had wrote:

Yereslov wrote:

Estimating the IQ of countries is a pointless task. 

Here is a good site that explains all this: 

http://jfmueller.faculty.noctrl.edu/100/correlation_or_causation.htm

 

i already explained that even if you could, you need to look at the players themselves....looking at the others only askews the data. the national iq averages wont account for popularity or things like the russian programs to isolate chess talent in children...

It is not like it used to be, but the chess culture in Russia is far stronger than anything in the United States. Same with Armenia and Ukraine.

In countries like this chess players are treated like celebrities, unlike here where chess players are shunned as nerds or introverted.

uwinagain

No no no! It's this simple..

If you beat me, then you are most intelligent. If I beat you then I am the most intelligent. Then if you beat me another ten times, you are still the most intelligent. If I beat you again then I am the most intelligent...

Need I go on....  LaughingLaughingSealed