Same Rating, Tactics or Positional Chess?

Sort:
Chesslover0_0
KeSetoKaiba wrote:

What about two GMs both at 2700 rating? The 2700 vs 2700 same scenario should have tactical and positional knowledge to exploit enough to convert into a win, so I'd believe that they would win roughly the same amount against each other (IF ratings were fixed at this level). 

I guess this hypothetical indirectly gets at an intriguing side-argument that a flaw in positional chess is less exploitable until a higher level where the competition seems to take advantage of this more consistently. What rating is this threshold? Probably around 1600-1800 chess.com range I'd estimate, so by this logic, yes I suppose in practical chess with a 1500 player versus another 1500 player (ratings NOT fixed, but merely just same rating during this game), then yeah the tactically better player might very well win more and increase their rating quicker. This isn't to say tactics are necessarily "better" but it is just something more tangible around this rating range. 

Very cool discussion which has come out of this hypothetical presented!

I'd agree with that pretty much, perhaps the debate should have been about "Class" players and not "Titled" players.  I think at the lower levels (Class rated players, which is probably 80-90% of the Chess community) tactics is way more important then both positional Chess and overall Chess strategy, if one would consider tactics "better" or not, I guess so?.., sounds more like semantics if anything.  The semantics part comes in with whether tactics are better or more important, pretty much saying the same thing, just worded differently.   

 

I'd think they are "better" (that is to say more important) then positional Chess at the Class level, as most games decided at that level will be decided by one side making a tactical error and the other side exploiting it.   The positional errors are exploited more often at the higher ends, however this is not to say that a Class player couldn't take advantage of a positional error made in a game, it's probably less likely though.  Therefore with that being said, the person who is stronger tactically would have the definite advantage over the one who's weaker tactically but again, this probably only applies at the Class levels, and even a debate over what those Classes are, rating ranges etc. could be made as well, but I'm speaking more in a general sense. 

Jenium
Chesslover0_0 wrote:
Jenium wrote:

Tactics are more important but the score would be still even as they are both 1500 players... It's a bit like asking what's heavier 1kg of iron or 1kg of feathers...

 

 

I disagree with this because at the lower levels (1500 is considered lower level, although the post wasn't about anyone being 1500 or any rating for that matter, the rating of 1500 was just being used as an example, read the post more closely folks!), however, at the rating of 1500, tactical skill/ability is way more important then strategic and even positional Chess.  Therefore if the positionally skilled 1500 rated player is making tactical errors left and right, he'll simply lose all his pieces to the tactically skilled 1500 player, it's hard to win when you're down alot of material (which is exactly what will happen to a tactically weak player, no matter how "good" his position is) and certainly a 1500 rated player is competent enough to close out an endgame or two with a lone Queen and/or 2 rooks or even 1 rook..

Sure, tactics are more important at lower levels, but the premise is that they both have the same rating. This literally means that it is statistically expected that they score 50% against each other.  It could look like this:

Player A: Positional strength = 2000; Tactical strength = 1450; Rating = 1500

Player B: Positional strength = 1000; Tactical strength = 1550; Rating = 1500 

The huge positional edge of player A is compensated by the small tactical edge of player B, since tactics are more important...

blueemu
Jenium wrote: ... but the premise is that they both have the same rating. This literally means that it is statistically expected that they score 50% against each other.

No.

It means that they would expect to score the same number of points if paired against the same field of other players.

It says nothing about their performance against each other, since the players themselves will NEVER be included in the same field of players (Player A will never be paired against Player A, and Player B will never be paired against Player B).

It is impossible to predict the head-to-head results with accuracy, because the peculiarities of individual style play a role. Geller and Tal both had lifetime plus scores against Bobby Fischer despite being weaker players... Fischer's clear strategic style did not resonate well with the murky tactical messes favored by Tal and Geller.

Chesslover0_0
Jenium wrote:
Chesslover0_0 wrote:
Jenium wrote:

Tactics are more important but the score would be still even as they are both 1500 players... It's a bit like asking what's heavier 1kg of iron or 1kg of feathers...

 

 

I disagree with this because at the lower levels (1500 is considered lower level, although the post wasn't about anyone being 1500 or any rating for that matter, the rating of 1500 was just being used as an example, read the post more closely folks!), however, at the rating of 1500, tactical skill/ability is way more important then strategic and even positional Chess.  Therefore if the positionally skilled 1500 rated player is making tactical errors left and right, he'll simply lose all his pieces to the tactically skilled 1500 player, it's hard to win when you're down alot of material (which is exactly what will happen to a tactically weak player, no matter how "good" his position is) and certainly a 1500 rated player is competent enough to close out an endgame or two with a lone Queen and/or 2 rooks or even 1 rook..

Sure, tactics are more important at lower levels, but the premise is that they both have the same rating. This literally means that it is statistically expected that they score 50% against each other.  It could look like this:

Player A: Positional strength = 2000; Tactical strength = 1450; Rating = 1500

Player B: Positional strength = 1000; Tactical strength = 1550; Rating = 1500 

The huge positional edge of player A is compensated by the small tactical edge of player B, since tactics are more important...

Well I do tend to agree then if you'd see my comment to the OP just now.  I don't know if I agree with those statistics though, doesn't make sense to me.  You're saying that if a person has a positional strength of 2000 but a tactical strength of 1450 he'll automatically be a rating of 1500.  I don't know if I agree with that, the math adds up sure enough though.  Again though the debate wasn't about a player rated 1500 which for some reason people here are clinging to and you yourself said the post was about ANY rating and not 1500, which was used as an example.  I'm going to reiterate my side of it, and that simply is that 2 players that are in the same Class, and approximately the same rating, again this is JUST for Classes, Titled players are not in this argument as too many other factors need to get factored in.   

If one Class player is stronger tactically he has an overall advantage over the one who's weaker tactically but positionally stronger, perhaps that wording makes it more clear. 

Chesslover0_0
blueemu wrote:
Jenium wrote: ... but the premise is that they both have the same rating. This literally means that it is statistically expected that they score 50% against each other.

Fischer's clear strategic style did not resonate well with the murky tactical messes favored by Tal and Geller.

Agreed, now none of us here are Tal and probably never will be, however a strong tactical player will play "unconventional" which will no doubt confuse a positionally/strategically sound player and throw him/her off guard and possibly win material.. *sighs* this is pretty much the pillar of my argument.... 

Wurstzug
This will never be the case. Position and Tactics are always bonded together .
Jenium
blueemu wrote:
Jenium wrote: ... but the premise is that they both have the same rating. This literally means that it is statistically expected that they score 50% against each other.

No.

It means that they would expect to score the same number of points if paired against the same field of other players.

It says nothing about their performance against each other, since the players themselves will NEVER be included in the same field of players (Player A will never be paired against Player A, and Player B will never be paired against Player B).

It is impossible to predict the head-to-head results with accuracy, because the peculiarities of individual style play a role. Geller and Tal both had lifetime plus scores against Bobby Fischer despite being weaker players... Fischer's clear strategic style did not resonate well with the murky tactical messes favored by Tal and Geller.

I am talking about statistical expectations. Statistically it IS expected that they score 50%. Of course, real life is different. If all players scored as expected, ratings wouldn't change at all and we wouldn't need to play chess.

Jenium
Chesslover0_0 wrote:
Jenium wrote:
Chesslover0_0 wrote:
Jenium wrote:

Tactics are more important but the score would be still even as they are both 1500 players... It's a bit like asking what's heavier 1kg of iron or 1kg of feathers...

 

 

I disagree with this because at the lower levels (1500 is considered lower level, although the post wasn't about anyone being 1500 or any rating for that matter, the rating of 1500 was just being used as an example, read the post more closely folks!), however, at the rating of 1500, tactical skill/ability is way more important then strategic and even positional Chess.  Therefore if the positionally skilled 1500 rated player is making tactical errors left and right, he'll simply lose all his pieces to the tactically skilled 1500 player, it's hard to win when you're down alot of material (which is exactly what will happen to a tactically weak player, no matter how "good" his position is) and certainly a 1500 rated player is competent enough to close out an endgame or two with a lone Queen and/or 2 rooks or even 1 rook..

Sure, tactics are more important at lower levels, but the premise is that they both have the same rating. This literally means that it is statistically expected that they score 50% against each other.  It could look like this:

Player A: Positional strength = 2000; Tactical strength = 1450; Rating = 1500

Player B: Positional strength = 1000; Tactical strength = 1550; Rating = 1500 

The huge positional edge of player A is compensated by the small tactical edge of player B, since tactics are more important...

Well I do tend to agree then if you'd see my comment to the OP just now.  I don't know if I agree with those statistics though, doesn't make sense to me.  You're saying that if a person has a positional strength of 2000 but a tactical strength of 1450 he'll automatically be a rating of 1500.  I don't know if I agree with that, the math adds up sure enough though.  Again though the debate wasn't about a player rated 1500 which for some reason people here are clinging to and you yourself said the post was about ANY rating and not 1500, which was used as an example.  I'm going to reiterate my side of it, and that simply is that 2 players that are in the same Class, and approximately the same rating, again this is JUST for Classes, Titled players are not in this argument as too many other factors need to get factored in.   

If one Class player is stronger tactically he has an overall advantage over the one who's weaker tactically but positionally stronger, perhaps that wording makes it more clear. 

I see your point and I agree that tactics are more important. My numbers were just examples for saying that a player's rating already takes into account that tactics weigh more than other considerations.

What about this case? Player A: positional strength: 2800, tactics: 1495 / Player B: positional strength: 500, tactics: 1500. Player B is tactically stronger, but I doubt that he/she would beat player A.

 

 

Chesslover0_0

What about this case? Player A: positional strength: 2800, tactics: 1495 / Player B: positional strength: 500, tactics: 1500. Player B is tactically stronger, but I doubt that he/she would beat player A.

 

 

This is why I corrected my part or side of the debate.  I said only Class rated players, so technically your example here doesn't apply?... I mean you're talking about someone with a rating of 2800, granted just their positional skills but still.  Also your example is pretty extreme, in terms of being bias towards the positional player, it's highly doubtful that someone with the ability of 2800 GM (which is super GM strength) would have a problem with most players, positional play or otherwise.   

The numbers are too far apart and thus very unfair, another thing to consider is that nobody would make it to 2800 with a tactical skill level of approximately 1500....

Again, my argument is simply that at the Class level tactics are way more important then positional skills, thus, if 2 Class rated players are both around the same rating (numbers don't have to be exact), the one with more tactical ability would win, even if his positional skills were lacking. 

Jenium
Chesslover0_0 wrote:

 if 2 Class rated players are both around the same rating (numbers don't have to be exact), the one with more tactical ability would win, even if his positional skills were lacking. 

If this were the case, his/her rating would be higher...  But well, let's agree to disagree. happy.png

Chesslover0_0
Jenium wrote:
Chesslover0_0 wrote:

 if 2 Class rated players are both around the same rating (numbers don't have to be exact), the one with more tactical ability would win, even if his positional skills were lacking. 

If this were the case, his/her rating would be higher...  But well, let's agree to disagree.

I guess, OP made the same argument, as far as you and I are concerned, I didn't even know that we were disagreeing...until now.  I stand by what I said though, the tactically stronger player's rating being higher doesn't make any sense does it?  I mean think about it, logically.., the whole argument is based on 2 people who've never met who are around the same rating, so again, for the sake of example, 2 players rated about 1500, sit down to play let's say 10 unrated games, the player who is tactically stronger is in all likelihood going to win most of those games, that's based on research which is based on facts but believe what you want friend. ..... 

It's not about one Player being rated higher, yes I'd agree that the player who's 1500 who is stronger tactically will eventually be rated higher (assuming they play rated games when they play?) as he/she's the stronger player between the two.  Keep in mind ratings are just numbers to represent one's playing strength, I'm sure not all 1500 rated players have the same knowledge in all areas, tactical, positional and strategical, again, that's the pillar of this argument, is that one player who is positional stronger and tactically weaker will lose most of his/her games to a player of the same rating who is the opposite of that, that is to say tactically stronger and positionally weaker.   

Alright that's all I gotta say, anything more and I fear I'll be repeating myself, Agree to disagree then friend :) 

Jenium
Chesslover0_0 wrote:

so again, for the sake of example, 2 players rated about 1500, sit down to play let's say 10 unrated games, the player who is tactically stronger is in all likelihood going to win most of those games, that's based on research which is based on facts but believe what you want friend. ..... 

Sorry, but this is like saying that 1500 kg of iron weighs more than 1500 kg of feathers, because it is widely known that iron is heavier than feathers.

Also, I am very curious about the research you mentioned. Any sources?

Jenium
Chesslover0_0 wrote:
 

 I'm sure not all 1500 rated players have the same knowledge in all areas, tactical, positional and strategical, again, that's the pillar of this argument, is that one player who is positional stronger and tactically weaker will lose most of his/her games to a player of the same rating who is the opposite of that, that is to say tactically stronger and positionally weaker.   

I think your assumption is that the skills are evenly distribute, e.g. player A: positionally strong (1700), but tactically weak (1300) versus player B: tactically strong (1700), but positionally weak (1300). I agree that player B would win here... The point is that in this example player B wouldn't be 1500, but maybe 1600, and the positional player more like 1400...

zs0460

I don't think you could pick one over another, you need them both. First of all it is a tactical move which lands the final blow. But you need 'strategy' to make that 'tactic' happen. 

strategy: preperation - tactic: finishing move

Good positions allow good tactics.

But to answer your exact question, if one has to choose, tactic has more chance to win the game, since it is the real action that makes the damage. but you'd struggle to find one without a good strategy

Chesslover0_0
Jenium wrote:
Chesslover0_0 wrote:
 

 I'm sure not all 1500 rated players have the same knowledge in all areas, tactical, positional and strategical, again, that's the pillar of this argument, is that one player who is positional stronger and tactically weaker will lose most of his/her games to a player of the same rating who is the opposite of that, that is to say tactically stronger and positionally weaker.   

I think your assumption is that the skills are evenly distribute, e.g. player A: positionally strong (1700), but tactically weak (1300) versus player B: tactically strong (1700), but positionally weak (1300). I agree that player B would win here... The point is that in this example player B wouldn't be 1500, but maybe 1600, and the positional player more like 1400...

Friend I thought you were done? lol Oh but I'm not talking about what rating they would be?? lol 

Chesslover0_0
zs0460 wrote:

I don't think you could pick one over another, you need them both. First of all it is a tactical move which lands the final blow. But you need 'strategy' to make that 'tactic' happen. 

strategy: preperation - tactic: finishing move

Good positions allow good tactics.

But to answer your exact question, if one has to choose, tactic has more chance to win the game, since it is the real action that makes the damage. but you'd struggle to find one without a good strategy

Agreed 100%, of course the argument was for positional Chess but you're right this would apply to Strategic Chess as well.....

I say that to say that there is a difference between positional Chess and Chess strategy, even though often good Chess strategy is all about getting a good position but they are two different elements of good Chess. 

Jenium
Chesslover0_0 wrote:
Jenium wrote:
Chesslover0_0 wrote:
 

 I'm sure not all 1500 rated players have the same knowledge in all areas, tactical, positional and strategical, again, that's the pillar of this argument, is that one player who is positional stronger and tactically weaker will lose most of his/her games to a player of the same rating who is the opposite of that, that is to say tactically stronger and positionally weaker.   

I think your assumption is that the skills are evenly distribute, e.g. player A: positionally strong (1700), but tactically weak (1300) versus player B: tactically strong (1700), but positionally weak (1300). I agree that player B would win here... The point is that in this example player B wouldn't be 1500, but maybe 1600, and the positional player more like 1400...

Friend I thought you were done? lol Oh but I'm not talking about what rating they would be?? lol 

Well the premise was that they are both the same rating. But sure, let's keep it like that... ;-)

jetoba
Jenium wrote:
Chesslover0_0 wrote:
 

 I'm sure not all 1500 rated players have the same knowledge in all areas, tactical, positional and strategical, again, that's the pillar of this argument, is that one player who is positional stronger and tactically weaker will lose most of his/her games to a player of the same rating who is the opposite of that, that is to say tactically stronger and positionally weaker.   

I think your assumption is that the skills are evenly distribute, e.g. player A: positionally strong (1700), but tactically weak (1300) versus player B: tactically strong (1700), but positionally weak (1300). I agree that player B would win here... The point is that in this example player B wouldn't be 1500, but maybe 1600, and the positional player more like 1400...

A 1300-tactical-strength player can still see a decent percentage of the tactics and having a 1700-positional-strength would mean more positions with tactics.  If we assume that a 1700-strength-positional player will create twice as many potentially tactical positions as a 1300-strength would (call it 10 versus 5), and if we figure a 1700-strength-tactical player would be twice as likely to see tactics than a 1300-strength would (call it 60% versus 30%) then the total tactics seen by each player would be about the same (30% of 10 is 3 and 60% of 5 is 3) and the game would be a toss-up (they would see the same percentage in every game and the variance from that is equally likely to favor either player).  "1300", "1700", and "twice" are randomly chosen but the actual numbers and percentage seem likely to match up because otherwise the two players wouldn't have the same established rating anyway. 

Jenium

Maybe. This was just to examplify that their strengths and weaknesses are already weighted in their identical rating.  

MaetsNori

Too hard to answer in an "either or" situation.

To be a legitimate "positional" player, you generally have to look ahead and consider tactics that may arise - this helps inform your positional decisions.

You can't just be a "positional player" without tactical foresight. Or else, where would those positional choices come from?

So a positional player would also be using tactical knowledge, by default.

And a tactical player, by being aware of tactics, would be making positional decisions accordingly, by default.

So they're both the same player, in the end ... tongue.png