Should opening books be allowed?

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artfizz
Scarblac wrote: In fact, what's to stop anyone else who's looking at your ongoing game to copy the move? I think that happens regularly in thematic tournaments too.

So an effective strategy would be to play themed tournament games against stronger opponents first - then recycle those move against weaker opponents.

Or, play slowly and wait for all of the other participants to complete their games. Then copy the winning game lines.

Scarblac
artfizz wrote:
Scarblac wrote: In fact, what's to stop anyone else who's looking at your ongoing game to copy the move? I think that happens regularly in thematic tournaments too.

So an effective strategy would be to play themed tournament games against stronger opponents first - then recycle those move against weaker opponents.

Or, play slowly and wait for all of the other participants to complete their games. Then copy the winning game lines.


 Or just look what strong players did in the past. With, say, a database...

Intrepid_Spiff
azure9 wrote:

(...)

I however disagree with artfizz on quite a few things. One, I see absolutely no harm in playing two games simultaneously, even if they are similar positions. They cannot help each other unfairly unless you use resources for one of them, since both will be the products of your own thinking only.

Touch move with a mouse is stupid. It is very easy, especially on a touch screen, to accidentally press. That could lose you a game. Not good idea. Some other things as well, art; I think you went a bit overboard.


 

azure9, have you ever heard about sarcasm?

artfizz
Scarblac wrote: In fact, what's to stop anyone else who's looking at your ongoing game to copy the move? I think that happens regularly in thematic tournaments too.
artfizz wrote: So an effective strategy would be to play themed tournament games against stronger opponents first - then recycle those move against weaker opponents.

Or, play slowly and wait for all of the other participants to complete their games. Then copy the winning game lines.

Scarblac wrote: Or just look what strong players did in the past. With, say, a database...

Are you familiar with the song: There's_a_Hole_in_My_Bucket ?

Scarblac
artfizz wrote: Are you familiar with the song: There's_a_Hole_in_My_Bucket ?

I wasn't, thanks :-)

bigmac30

if think books should be allowed in coraspondance chess the idea is you analyse a position as far as you can go it is totally diferent game from otb and live chess how can u guess if someones useing a book i play against fritz 10 on 2640 level and 10 moves in i am never worse than -0.07  on move 20 never more than -1.45 never win however

TheOldReb
an_arbitrary_name wrote:

In correspondence chess on this site (and on other sites), opening books can be used. I've always wondered why this is.

IMO, it's basically cheating: An opening book gives you a list of the best moves in a position, and this list has been verified by some of the best players in the world. It's even possible to get deep into the middlegame with an opening book, and I think sometimes you can even get into an endgame (at least with a website like 365chess.com).

Why are opening books allowed in correspondence chess? :)

The simplest reason is that it can NOT be prevented ! In fact many correspondence organizations also allow the use of strong engines, probably for the very same reason.  Those people who believe its cheating and shouldnt be allowed should simply play otb chess and stop whining imo. Undecided

ichabod801
chess_kebabs wrote:

I am not going to outrightly call anyone a cheater... I just think using the tools during your games is like cheating...


 Of course you're not going to, you already have. So far in this thread you have called almost everyone on this site dishonest and a cheater.

tryst
azure9 wrote:

I never use opening resources during a game, but about 50% of the people I play on live are using one, judging by the fact that I go back over most games and often find that they followed the main line for about 20 moves until there are only 1 or 2 recorded games. I agree that using


So you're following the main line for 20 moves as well without using "opening resources"?Undecided

Ziryab
tryst wrote:
azure9 wrote:

I never use opening resources during a game, but about 50% of the people I play on live are using one, judging by the fact that I go back over most games and often find that they followed the main line for about 20 moves until there are only 1 or 2 recorded games. I agree that using


So you're following the main line for 20 moves as well without using "opening resources"?


Twenty moves in impressive! In my three minute blitz games, 8-12 moves of book is typical, even in offbeat transpositions such as this game:

tryst

That was a fun game to watch, Ziryab. Azure9's bad luck in having half his opponents using "opening resources", though, is lamentableFrown You could just see his frustration: "e4? Another cheater!"

Ziryab
tryst wrote:

That was a fun game to watch, Ziryab. Azure9's bad luck in having half his opponents using "opening resources", though, is lamentable You could just see his frustration: "e4? Another cheater!"


I almost think that a brain developed well enough to remember chess positions gives its host an unfair advantage. Perhaps these players should be banned from rated games against mere mortals.

Ziryab
Gambitking wrote:

Just as when you take a class, you can (and I should more!) read the textbook up until the test, you just shouldn't read it while ANSWERING the test questions... LOL!


I teach college and give open book exams. Students tell me that these exams are far more difficult than the closed book exams they take in other courses.

You make a good point that facile understanding of openings (or a subject is school) requires tests (games) with the book closed, but real knowledge (skill) goes far beyond the information that one can access in a database.

Fromper

Wow... I return to this thread after weeks to see 4 new pages of comments since yesterday. I'm not sure if I should grab some popcorn or a flak jacket.

A few comments:

Artfizz, you forgot a smiley face at the end of your long post as an aid for the sarcasm impaired (like azure9, apparently).

Chess_kebabs, saying that you shouldn't use books or databases because you can't in OTB games is like saying that American Football coaches shouldn't be allowed to have a written playbook with them on the sidelines during a game, because you can't use written notes during OTB chess. THEY'RE TWO DIFFERENT GAMES!!!

Real time chess and correspondence chess may have a lot in common, but they're not the same game. Correspondence is a game of research as much as of thought and pre-existing knowledge. That's why correspondence chess exists. If that's not what you want to play, then why are you playing it? If you want to avoid research during the game, then go play real time chess, either OTB or on the internet.

--Fromper

Ziryab
artfizz wrote:

Let us say you have much the same position against two opponents - one playing as white and the other as black. (This occurs all the time in themed tournaments). Suppose, your higher rated opponent makes a brilliant counter against you. What is to stop you copying that move in your other game?


I've seen something like this occur OTB. Two games, four players, both in the Flick Knife variation of the Benoni. Both pairs sitting at the same table--their boards separated by eight inches. One white player was stronger than his opponent; the other, in a game progressing more slowly, the white player was weaker than his.

On the weaker player's board, the white player only became aware that the adjacent game was identical after he failed to copy the better move. A few chuckles from spectators cause the commotion that brought the coincidence to his attention.

 

 

 

 

Needless to say, the chuckling spectators were banned from the tournament hall for life.

Tarkovsky
Ziryab wrote:
artfizz wrote:
 

Let us say you have much the same position against two opponents - one playing as white and the other as black. (This occurs all the time in themed tournaments). Suppose, your higher rated opponent makes a brilliant counter against you. What is to stop you copying that move in your other game?


I've seen something like this occur OTB. Two games, four players, both in the Flick Knife variation of the Benoni. Both pairs sitting at the same table--their boards separated by eight inches. One white player was stronger than his opponent; the other, in a game progressing more slowly, the white player was weaker than his.

On the weaker player's board, the white player only became aware that the adjacent game was identical after he failed to copy the better move. A few chuckles from spectators cause the commotion that brought the coincidence to his attention.

Needless to say, the chuckling spectators were banned from the tournament hall for life.


An amusing example of this:

 

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8a6st_derren-brown-beats-9-chess-players_videogames

trigs

(i have to admit that i did not read all of the 115 posts before i posted this one)

i just don't get the original posters argument. it's almost like saying "why isn't correspondence chess the same as OTB chess?" the answer, i would think, is pretty self explanatory.

artfizz
Gambitking wrote: Well, it seems that at least some positive things have come of this: a new group has been founded, so people won't be bothered by the 'purists' anymore... LOL!

... called what? I was thinking of starting a new group named

Circle Of Inner Trust - Unassisted Style

(or something).

trigs
Schachgeek wrote:

Ok people let's just put an end to this.

I just played 1.e4 in a game. Don't anybody copy me, it's cheating!


CHEATER! i just played that in my game!

artfizz
trigs wrote: (i have to admit that i did not read all of the 115 posts before i posted this one) ...

Tsk! Tsk! You seem to be adopting an OTB-approach to posting.