#59
Awaiting a better move than 4 Qb3 from @magipi here is proof that the move 2 h3 by IM Basman also loses by force:
This also highlights the difference between theory and practice. IM Basman has regularly played 1 g4? with good results in classical games against masters and grandmasters, e.g. in the British Championship.
I think you should look up the word "proof" in a dictionary. An illustrative game backed with some sketchy analysis is not proof.
Okay, how about this: I'll make a claim that might be even more absurd than yours. Here it comes:
Every move in those two analyses is wrong. Not only for white, but for both sides. So the question is what is best instead?
When the proposed move is the top move in chess.com's shallow analysis at depth 20, then the "second best" move is the actual best. When some other move is listed as best, that's it.
It sounds crazy, and it is certainly wrong. It also can't be proven or disproven by today's tools, we have to wait for many decades, probably centuries for chess to be solved.
@63
"Every move in those two analyses is wrong. Not only for white, but for both sides."
++ Both games end in wins for black, so the black moves stand above discussion.
If you disagree with the conclusion, then you have to find one better white move.
Just pick one move and present a better move in your opinion.
"we have to wait for many decades, probably centuries for chess to be solved"
++ Chess can be weakly solved in 5 years and we already have parts of the solution in the perfect drawn games with 0 errors from the ICCF World Championship Finals.
That however is not the discussion here.
Here we talk about the 20 possible first moves
and more specifically about the worst move 1 g4 and that it loses by force.
Instead of 4 Qb3 I also looked at 4 cxd5, which Henry Grob played. It loses just the same:
No, 1. g4 can't be a forced loss. In any case, Stockfish always over-evaluates. I always thought 1. c4 and 1. Nf3 were the strongest opening choices for white.
1.g4 is a forced loss in about 10/10 games or 20/20 games in TCEC games with approx 1 billions nodes per seconds search.
Wait, when did this happen?
I would think that if that was even remotely true, it would have been "Breaking News" in all chess websites.
As if anybody cares about how bad the Grob really is.
I certainly wouldn't play it but it's white's move in hand. White can 0-0-0. White can play h3. 
Earlier in this thread, drmrboss wrote that winning a game requires a material advantage of a rook. Now apparently 1. g4 is a forced loss. I mean, should we believe any of this?
Wait, the quote that chess can be solved in 5 years was made 15 years ago, right? I thought that you dropped that particular nonsense after people pointed this out.
#59
Awaiting a better move than 4 Qb3 from @magipi here is proof that the move 2 h3 by IM Basman also loses by force:
Please insert
"if the sequence of moves played in his illustrated game is also played".
This also highlights the difference between theory and practice. IM Basman has regularly played 1 g4? with good results in classical games against masters and grandmasters, e.g. in the British Championship.
Wait, the quote that chess can be solved in 5 years was made 15 years ago, right? I thought that you dropped that particular nonsense after people pointed this out.
No, it's still cutting edge apparently. Just the same as Elroch's assertion (via the inductive thinking that he himself condemns in others) that fundamental strategies of games theory apply to solving chess. They most definitely don't.
@66
"the quote that chess can be solved in 5 years was made 15 years ago"
++ Apparently nobody gave money for
3 (ICCF) (grand)masters and 3 cloud engines or 3000 desktops during 5 years.
Anyway back on topic.
1 g4? is the worst of the 20 possible first moves and it loses by force as per the 3 proof games I presented. If you disagree, the please produce one (1) white move better in your opinion.
No, 1. g4 can't be a forced loss. In any case, Stockfish always over-evaluates. I always thought 1. c4 and 1. Nf3 were the strongest opening choices for white.
1.g4 is a forced loss in about 10/10 games or 20/20 games in TCEC games with approx 1 billions nodes per seconds search.
Wait, when did this happen?
I would think that if that was even remotely true, it would have been "Breaking News" in all chess websites.
May be breaking news to you who dont know about computer chess and even did not know about TCEC. It has been known to computer chess community for more than a decade.
Dont ask me for another clarification, google TCEC and had a chat over there. People will laugh at you about your poor knowledge.
Some of today's knowledge is tomorrow's embarassment.
A guy from Talk chess forum run the infinite evaluation of initial position for 200+ hours on all possible 20 opening moves . Surprisingly, the two most popular opening moves both e4 and d4 are evaluated as 0.08+ and 0.06+ only. Nf3 scores as the best opening move with eval 0.17, while g4 is considered as the worst opening and it might possibly leady to forced lose for white with -0.92 evaluation.
50/80 200:44:26 9.890.822.131k 18.586k +0,17 1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 c6 3.c4 g6 4.cxd5 cxd5 5.d4 Bg7 6.Bg2 e6 7.0-0 Ne7 8.b3 0-0 9.Qd2 Nbc6 10.Ba3 Qd7 11.Rc1 b6 12.e3 Bb7 13.Nc3 Rfc8 14.Rc2 Nf5 15.Rac1 h5 16.Bh3 a5 17.Na4 Qd8 18.Bxf5 exf5 19.h3 Bf6 20.Kg2 Bg7 21.h4 Bf6 22.Rc3 Ne7 23.Rxc8 Nxc8 24.Nc3 Nd6 25.Bxd6 Qxd6 26.Nb5 Qd7
50/80 200:44:26 9.890.822.131k 18.586k +0,08 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 c5 4.exd5 Qxd5 5.Ngf3 cxd4 6.Bc4 Qd6 7.0-0 Nf6 8.Nb3 Nc6 9.Nbxd4 Nxd4 10.Nxd4 a6 11.Re1 Qc7 12.Bb3 Bd6 13.g3 0-0 14.Bg5 Qd8 15.c3 h6 16.Bxf6 Qxf6 17.Qf3 Qxf3 18.Nxf3 Rd8 19.Rad1 b5 20.Ne5 Bc7 21.Rxd8+ Bxd8 22.Rd1 Bc7 23.Bc2 Bb7 24.Rd7 Bxe5 25.Rxb7 Rd8 26.a4 Rd2 27.axb5 axb5
50/80 200:44:26 9.890.822.131k 18.586k +0,06 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 e6 4.Nbd2 Be7 5.Bd3 c5 6.b3 Nc6 7.Bb2 b6 8.0-0 Bb7 9.a3 Qc7 10.Rc1 cxd4 11.exd4 Qf4 12.g3 Qh6 13.Kg2 0-0 14.Rh1 Rac8 15.Qe2 g6 16.Rce1 Qg7 17.h3 Rfd8 18.c3 Bd6 19.a4 Rc7 20.b4 h6 21.Ne5 Ne7 22.b5 Nf5 23.Ndf3 Ne4 24.c4 Bb4 25.cxd5 exd5
50/80 200:44:26 9.890.822.131k 18.586k 0,00 1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e6 6.e3 Bb4 7.Be2 Ne4 8.Bd2 Nxc3 9.Bxc3 Bxc3+ 10.bxc3 0-0 11.0-0 Na5 12.Nb3 b6 13.Nxa5 bxa5 14.Rb1 Qc7 15.Bf3 Rb8 16.Rxb8 Qxb8 17.Qd4 Qb2 18.a4 Bb7 19.Qxd7 Bxf3 20.gxf3 Qe2 21.Qc6 Qd3 22.Kg2 Qg6+ 23.Kh3 Qd3 24.Kg2
50/80 200:44:26 9.890.822.131k 18.586k 0,00 1.b3 d5 2.Nf3 Bf5 3.Bb2 e6 4.d3 h6 5.g3 c6 6.Nbd2 Nf6 7.Bg2 Be7 8.0-0 0-0 9.Re1 Nbd7 10.h3 Bg6 11.e4 dxe4 12.dxe4 Qc7 13.Qe2 a5 14.a3 Rfd8 15.Nh4 Bh7 16.Nhf3
50/80 200:44:26 9.890.822.131k 18.586k 0,00 1.g3 c5 2.e4 d5 3.exd5 Qxd5 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.d3 Nd4 6.Bg2 Bh3 7.Bxh3 Nxf3+ 8.Kf1 Nd2+ 9.Kg1 Nf3+ 10.Kf1
50/80 200:44:26 9.890.822.131k 18.586k 0,00 1.e3 d5 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nf3 e6 4.b3 b6 5.c4 Bd6 6.Ba3 dxc4 7.Bxd6 cxd6 8.bxc4 Nc6 9.Be2 Qd7 10.0-0 0-0 11.Nfd2 Ba6 12.Nb3 Rab8 13.N1d2 Rfc8 14.h3 h6 15.Re1 Bb7 16.Qb1 Ne7 17.a4 a5 18.Rc1 Bc6 19.Qa2 Bb7 20.Qb1
50/80 200:44:26 9.890.822.131k 18.586k 0,00 1.c3 Nf6 2.d4 d5 3.Bg5 c5 4.e3 e6 5.Nf3 Nbd7 6.Bf4 Nh5 7.Be5 Nhf6 8.Bf4
50/80 200:44:26 9.890.822.131k 18.586k 0,00 1.h3 e5 2.e3 d5 3.d4 Nc6 4.dxe5 Nxe5 5.Nf3 Nxf3+ 6.Qxf3 Nf6 7.Bd3 c6 8.0-0 Bd6 9.Nc3 Bc7 10.Re1 Qd6 11.Qf4 Qe7 12.Qh4 Qd6 13.Qf4
50/80 200:44:26 9.890.822.131k 18.586k 0,00 1.d3 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.dxe4 Qxd1+ 4.Kxd1 e5 5.Nd2 f6 6.f3 Nh6 7.a4 Nf7 8.Nh3 Nd6 9.b3 Be6 10.Nf2 Nc6 11.c3 0-0-0 12.Kc2 Na5 13.Be2 h5 14.Nd3 b6 15.b4 Nc6 16.Rd1 a5 17.b5 Nb8 18.Nb2 Nd7 19.Ndc4 Nb7 20.Ne3 Nd6 21.Nec4
50/80 200:44:26 9.890.822.131k 18.586k 0,00 1.a3 e5 2.c4 g6 3.b4 Nf6 4.e3 Bg7 5.Bb2 Qe7 6.Nc3 0-0 7.Be2 a5 8.b5 d6 9.Nf3 e4 10.Nd4 Nbd7 11.0-0 Nc5 12.Qc2 Bd7 13.a4 c6 14.Nb3 Bf5 15.Nd4 Bd7
50/80 200:44:26 9.890.822.131k 18.586k 0,00 1.b4 e5 2.Bb2 Bxb4 3.Bxe5 Nf6 4.Nf3 0-0 5.e3 d5 6.c4 c5 7.cxd5 Nxd5 8.Qc2 Nc6 9.Bb2 g6 10.Be2 Bf5 11.Qb3 Be6 12.Qc2 Qe7 13.0-0 Rad8 14.a3 Bf5 15.Qb3 Ba5 16.Nc3 Nxc3 17.Bxc3 Be4 18.Bb2 Bd5 19.Qa4 Bc7 20.Rac1 Na5 21.Bc3 Nc6 22.Bb2
50/80 200:44:26 9.890.822.131k 18.586k 0,00 1.f4 b6 2.b3 Nf6 3.Bb2 c5 4.g3 Bb7 5.Nf3 d5 6.Bg2 e6 7.e3 g6 8.0-0 Nc6 9.d3 Bg7 10.c4 Rc8 11.Qe2 0-0 12.Ne5 h5 13.Na3 Nxe5 14.Bxe5 Ne8 15.Bxg7 Kxg7 16.cxd5 Bxd5 17.e4 Bc6 18.Qb2+ Nf6 19.Nc4 h4 20.gxh4 Rh8 21.Ne5 Rxh4 22.f5 exf5 23.Nxc6 Rxc6 24.exf5 Rc7 25.fxg6 Qd4+ 26.Qxd4 Rxd4 27.gxf7 Rxf7 28.Rf2 Rxd3
50/80 200:44:26 9.890.822.131k 18.586k -0,14 1.Nc3 d5 2.d4 Nf6 3.Bf4 a6 4.e3 e6 5.Nf3 b5 6.Be2 c5 7.0-0 Bb7 8.Nb1 Nbd7 9.c3 Nb6 10.Nbd2 c4 11.b3 Ba3 12.Qc2 0-0 13.Ne5 Rc8 14.Rfb1 Nfd7 15.Rd1 Nxe5 16.Bxe5 Be7 17.Rdc1 Bc6 18.Bg3 Qd7 19.h3 Rfd8 20.bxc4 dxc4 21.e4 Bd6 22.Bxd6 Qxd6 23.Re1 h6 24.e5 Qc7 25.Rab1 Qb7
50/80 200:44:26 9.890.822.131k 18.586k -0,16 1.a4 Nf6 2.d4 e6 3.Nf3 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.e3 Qc7 6.Nbd2 d5 7.Bb5 Be7 8.0-0 0-0 9.b3 b6 10.Ba3 Bb7 11.Qb1 a5 12.Bb2 Rad8 13.h3 Ne4 14.Qe1 f5 15.Qe2 Bd6 16.Rad1 Na7 17.Bd3 Qe7 18.Rfe1 Nc6 19.Bb5 Bc7 20.Kh1 Qf7 21.Kg1 Qg6 22.Nh4 Qh6 23.Nhf3 g5 24.Bxc6 Bxc6 25.Nxe4 dxe4 26.Ne5 Bd5
50/80 200:44:26 9.890.822.131k 18.586k -0,19 1.h4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.g3 d5 4.Bg2 c5 5.0-0 Be7 6.b3 0-0 7.e3 Nc6 8.d4 cxd4 9.exd4 b5 10.Re1 Bb7 11.c3 b4 12.c4 dxc4 13.bxc4 Na5 14.c5 Bd5 15.Nbd2 Nc6 16.Bb2 a5 17.a3 Qc7 18.axb4 axb4 19.Bf1 Rxa1 20.Qxa1 Qb7 21.Qb1 Rb8 22.Bc4 Qd7 23.Qd3 Ra8 24.Qe2 h6 25.Ne5 Qb7 26.Nxf7 Bxc4 27.Qxc4 Kxf7
50/80 200:44:26 9.890.822.131k 18.586k -0,35 1.Na3 e5 2.e3 d5 3.d4 Nd7 4.Nb1 c6 5.c4 Ngf6 6.cxd5 Nxd5 7.Ne2 exd4 8.Nxd4 N7f6 9.Be2 Bd6 10.Nc3 0-0 11.Nxd5 Nxd5 12.0-0 Bc7 13.Qc2 Qd6 14.g3 Bh3 15.Rd1 Bb6 16.e4 Nf6 17.Bf4 Qe7 18.Bf3 Rad8 19.Nf5 Qe6 20.Ne3 Bg4 21.Nxg4 Nxg4 22.Rf1 h6 23.Qb3 Qxb3 24.axb3 Nf6 25.Be5 Rd3 26.Kg2 Re8 27.Bxf6 gxf6
50/80 200:44:26 9.890.822.131k 18.586k -0,36 1.Nh3 d5 2.d4 Nf6 3.Ng5 c5 4.e3 Nc6 5.Nf3 g6 6.Be2 Bg7 7.0-0 0-0 8.c3 b6 9.b3 Bb7 10.Nbd2 Qd6 11.Qc2 Rac8 12.Ba3 e5 13.dxe5 Nxe5 14.Nxe5 Qxe5 15.Bb2 Rfe8 16.Rfe1 Nd7 17.Rad1 Rcd8 18.h3 a6 19.Nf3 Qe7 20.c4 Bxb2 21.Qxb2 Qf6 22.Qc2 dxc4 23.bxc4 Bc6 24.Rd2 Ne5 25.Nxe5 Qxe5 26.Red1 Rxd2 27.Qxd2
50/80 200:44:26 9.890.822.131k 18.586k -0,41 1.f3 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.d4 exd4 4.Qxd4 Nc6 5.Qf2 d5 6.e4 Bb4 7.Bd2 Bxc3 8.Bxc3 dxe4 9.Qc5 Be6 10.Ne2 Qd5 11.Qxd5 Nxd5 12.Bxg7 Rg8 13.Bh6 0-0-0 14.0-0-0 Ncb4 15.Nc3 Rg6 16.Nxd5 Bxd5 17.Bd2 exf3 18.gxf3 Bxf3 19.Bh3+ Bg4 20.Bxb4 Bxh3 21.Rxd8+ Kxd8 22.Rd1+ Kc8 23.Rd2 Be6 24.b3 b6 25.Bc3 Kb7 26.Be5 Rh6 27.c4 Rh5 28.Bg3 Kc6
50/80 200:44:26 9.890.822.131k 18.586k -0,92 1.g4 d5 2.e3 e5 3.a3 Nc6 4.d3 g6 5.Nd2 Bg7 6.h4 h6 7.b4 d4 8.Ne4 dxe3 9.Bxe3 a5 10.bxa5 Rxa5 11.Bd2 Ra8 12.Bg2 Nge7 13.g5 h5 14.Ne2 0-0 15.Qb1 Nf5 16.N2g3 Nfd4 17.0-0 Bg4 18.f3 Be6 19.Rf2 b6 20.Qb2 Qe7 21.Qc1 Rfd8 22.Be3 Kh8 23.f4 Bg4 24.Nf6 Bxf6 25.Bxd4 Nxd4 26.Bxa8
Nf3=Neater than the other Freakin 3 (Which would be, e4, d4, and c4).
@72
Conclusion: of the 20 possible first moves, 19 are objectively equivalent and lead to a draw with best play from both sides, only 1 g4? loses by force.
Just spotted this thread.
In 1980s I wrote a "sci-fi" short story about a computer "presentation" of "The Perfect Game of Chess". The entire Chess World turns up. The game proceeds... "1. Nf3... Black resigns..." plus loads of analysis.
Published in "Scottish Chess" titled "Heads You Win..." ... this thread really brings it back.
@74
Rather 1 Nf3, players agree on a draw.
@64 @tygxc 8. d4 (For the first 1. g4 game:
1. g4 d5 2. Bg2 Bxg4 3. c4 c6 4. Qb3 e6 5. Qxb7 Nd7 6. Nc3 Ne7 7. cxd5 exd5 8. d4
0.5
12345678hgfedcba
yared200k(771)
Analysis
AnalysisReviewDetailsOpenings
Evaluation
Lines
depth=20 | Stockfish 11
+0.51 1. e4 e5 2. f3 d6 3. d4 exd4 4. xd4 f6 5. d3 c5 6. f3 e7 7. c4 O-O 8. c3 c6 9. d5 e5 10. xe5 dxe5 11. O-O e6 12. e3 d6
+0.51 1. f3 d5 2. d4 f6 3. c4 e6 4. c3 b4 5. d2 c5 6. a3 xc3 7. xc3 cxd4 8. xd4 c6 9. xf6 xf6 10. cxd5 exd5 11. xd5 xb2
+0.29 1. d4 d5 2. f3 f6 3. c4 e6 4. c3 e7 5. e3 O-O 6. e2 dxc4 7. O-O c5 8. xc4 cxd4 9. exd4 c6 10. e3 a6 11. d3 b4 12. b1 c6
Starting Position
MittensBot vs. yared200k
Chess.com: vs Computer: 2023.01.31
1. e4 c52. f3 e63. d4 cxd44. xd4 c65. b5 d66. 1c3 f67. e2 a68. d4 e79. O-O O-O10. xc6 bxc611. d3 e512. f4 exf413. xf4 g414. h1 e515. d4 e616. ad1 c717. b3 fd818. h3 a519. a4 f620. b6 e721. f2 g622. d2 e823. b6 a724. c4 xc425. xc4 aa826. e1 e527. c3 xc428. xf6 xf629. xf6 gxf630. bxc4 xe431. xf6 xc432. dxd6 xc233. xc6 xa234. c7 f835. a7 g736. f5 g637. axa5 xa538. xa5 c839. h4 f540. h2 c241. a6+ h542. a4 e243. a7 xh444. xh7+ g445. h8 e746. g1 a747. h2 f448. g8+ f549. f8+ e450. e8+ f551. f8+ e452. e8+ d453. g1 a1+54. f2 a355. e7 d556. d7+ e457. e7+ f558. e8 a2+59. f3 a3+60. f2 a2+61. f3 a3+62. f21/2-1/2Upgrade to Save
Saved Analysis
it was hard i draw miten ?!! i swaer and the max bot like how i am so good on this
@drmrboss
May be breaking news to you who dont know about computer chess and even did not know about TCEC. It has been known to computer chess community for more than a decade.
Dont ask me for another clarification, google TCEC and had a chat over there. People will laugh at you about your poor knowledge.
Wait, are you claiming that sampling a bunch of computer tournament games is the same thing as proving a forced loss?
No, 1. g4 can't be a forced loss. In any case, Stockfish always over-evaluates. I always thought 1. c4 and 1. Nf3 were the strongest opening choices for white.
1.g4 is a forced loss in about 10/10 games or 20/20 games in TCEC games with approx 1 billions nodes per seconds search.
Wait, when did this happen?
I would think that if that was even remotely true, it would have been "Breaking News" in all chess websites.
As if anybody cares about how bad the Grob really is.