studying Endgame first, or Openings.

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Avatar of Loudcolor

Don't study at all, just play and it comes together over time.

Avatar of kindaspongey
gingerninja2003 wrote:
Kai_sa wrote:
Ashvapathi wrote:

Its best to start with opening traps. Because the game will not last till endgame if you mess up in the opening or middle game.

Yes. The 8000 game 1700 player is right.

Jose Raul Capablanca (with his eight year streak without a loss) is correct.

"... The game might be divided into three parts, i.e.:- 1. The opening. 2. The middle-game. 3. The end-game. There is one thing you must strive for, to be equally efficient in the three parts. Whether you are a strong or a weak player, you should try to be of equal strength in the three parts. ..."

Avatar of troy7915
FishEyedFools wrote:

This has been discussed to DEATH, soooooooo....I will chip in my .02

Start with the endgame first.

Dont remember who said it:

"A mistake in the opening you can recover from.  A mistake in the middlegame will hurt you.  A mistake in the endgame will kill you"

 Yes, but by seriously studying the openings first you’ll benefit much more. You are beginning to calculate many moves ahead, for instance, especially when you can recite opening lines for hours, on memory alone. Then, when you are faced with endings, you find it much simpler to cover most variants.

  Also, by studying openings you learn strategies, tactics, at the most complex level, understanding the most fundamental ideas of making progress in the most complex situations.

Avatar of kindaspongey

"... I feel that the main reasons to buy an opening book are to give a good overview of the opening, and to explain general plans and ideas. ..." - GM John Nunn (2006)

Avatar of troy7915
DeirdreSkye wrote:
troy7915 wrote:
FishEyedFools wrote:

This has been discussed to DEATH, soooooooo....I will chip in my .02

Start with the endgame first.

Dont remember who said it:

"A mistake in the opening you can recover from.  A mistake in the middlegame will hurt you.  A mistake in the endgame will kill you"

 Yes, but by seriously studying the openings first you’ll benefit much more. You are beginning to calculate many moves ahead, for instance, especially when you can recite opening lines for hours, on memory alone. Then, when you are faced with endings, you find it much simpler to cover most variants.

  Also, by studying openings you learn strategies, tactics, at the most complex level, understanding the most fundamental ideas of making progress in the most complex situations.

 

    Memorising opening lines won't help you get better , in either strategy or calculation. This is well known for decades.

Even understanding openings moves won't help at all your calculation or your middlegame understanding.

As for "when you are faced with endings, you find it much simpler to cover most variants" , that was a good laugh indeed. 

You obviously never studied endgame and you have no idea how difficult it is.

 

  You never studied openings perhaps, and you have no idea how difficult that is...Obviously, if you have less pieces on the board calculation becomes easier, you don’t have to be a genius to see that. So getting good at calculation with most pieces on board pays off when less pieces are present, in a much less complex situation. The lack of logic can, indeed, produce ‘a good laugh’.

  I wasn’t promoting memorization alone, but the one coming as a result of understanding the ideas behind, which is chess in all its splendor. Jumping to conclusions just to make a point is easy.

  As a result of a diligent study of various positions, memorization happens as a natural next step—that is if one has enough grey matter. If not, playing chess at a decent level is not possible.

  Finally, if one doesn’t know their openings in great detail, they won’t make it to the ending. So they are preparing for a phase of the game they won’t make it into...

Avatar of troy7915
kindaspongey wrote:

"... I feel that the main reasons to buy an opening book are to give a good overview of the opening, and to explain general plans and ideas. ..." - GM John Nunn (2006)

 

  That’s why you have to get all the opening books and specialty books that deal with specific openings, and study them yourself. Any one opening book is nothing.

Avatar of gingerninja2003
troy7915 wrote:
DeirdreSkye wrote:
troy7915 wrote:
FishEyedFools wrote:

This has been discussed to DEATH, soooooooo....I will chip in my .02

Start with the endgame first.

Dont remember who said it:

"A mistake in the opening you can recover from.  A mistake in the middlegame will hurt you.  A mistake in the endgame will kill you"

 Yes, but by seriously studying the openings first you’ll benefit much more. You are beginning to calculate many moves ahead, for instance, especially when you can recite opening lines for hours, on memory alone. Then, when you are faced with endings, you find it much simpler to cover most variants.

  Also, by studying openings you learn strategies, tactics, at the most complex level, understanding the most fundamental ideas of making progress in the most complex situations.

 

    Memorising opening lines won't help you get better , in either strategy or calculation. This is well known for decades.

Even understanding openings moves won't help at all your calculation or your middlegame understanding.

As for "when you are faced with endings, you find it much simpler to cover most variants" , that was a good laugh indeed. 

You obviously never studied endgame and you have no idea how difficult it is.

 

  You never studied openings perhaps, and you have no idea how difficult that is...Obviously, if you have less pieces on the board calculation becomes easier, you don’t have to be a genius to see that. So getting good at calculation with most pieces on board pays off when less pieces are present, in a much less complex situation. The lack of logic can, indeed, produce ‘a good laugh’.

  I wasn’t promoting memorization alone, but the one coming as a result of understanding the ideas behind, which is chess in all its splendor. Jumping to conclusions just to make a point is easy.

  As a result of a diligent study of various positions, memorization happens as a natural next step—that is if one has enough grey matter. If not, playing chess at a decent level is not possible.

  Finally, if one doesn’t know their openings in great detail, they won’t make it to the ending. So they are preparing for a phase of the game they won’t make it into...

Endgames are harder than they seem. Although you can calculate further ahead in an endgame, even grand masters make mistakes Quite commonly. Here's a recent example.


  move 55 Kc6?? is a game losing mistake and look at the other lines. If Hou found the best move then both players would've had to find the best move every time otherwise it's a loss and i've had a quick look at the drawing line and there are some difficult moves to find which wouldn't be your first instinct to play.. An opening error is recoverable. a middle game error is hard to get back from. An endgame error loses. 

If you're not convinced: another example.

after 30...b6 Ding get's into a bad endgame and at move 55 is losing yet Aronian (who's in the top 5) still managed to draw it!

endgames are really easy aren't they.

Avatar of camter

I think that as soon as you learn the rules, you should study the simpler endgames especially pawn end games.

For youngsters, let them expriment with Openings, and getting a fell for how the pieces work.

 

let learn your pins and forks and simpler tactics.

 

The Russians always started a learner with  King and a Pawn for the pupil at one end, and a lone King for himself at the other with the invitation, "Mate me!"

Avatar of Kai_sa
camter wrote:

I think that as soon as you learn the rules, you should study the simpler endgames especially pawn end games.

For youngsters, let them expriment with Openings, and getting a fell for how the pieces work.

 

let learn your pins and forks and simpler tactics.

 

The Russians always started a learner with  King and a Pawn for the pupil at one end, and a lone King for himself at the other with the invitation, "Mate me!"

I don't understand how someone with 10000 games 1000 blitz can have the audacity to give advice. tongue.png

Avatar of IMKeto
troy7915 wrote:
FishEyedFools wrote:

This has been discussed to DEATH, soooooooo....I will chip in my .02

Start with the endgame first.

Dont remember who said it:

"A mistake in the opening you can recover from.  A mistake in the middlegame will hurt you.  A mistake in the endgame will kill you"

 Yes, but by seriously studying the openings first you’ll benefit much more. You are beginning to calculate many moves ahead, for instance, especially when you can recite opening lines for hours, on memory alone. Then, when you are faced with endings, you find it much simpler to cover most variants.

  Also, by studying openings you learn strategies, tactics, at the most complex level, understanding the most fundamental ideas of making progress in the most complex situations.

I can memorize a book on open heart surgery, but you dont want me performing open heart surgery on anyone.  Just memorizing openings doesnt make you better.

Its the "Why" behind each move that makes you a better player.

Avatar of camter
Kai_sa wrote:
camter wrote:

I think that as soon as you learn the rules, you should study the simpler endgames especially pawn end games.

For youngsters, let them expriment with Openings, and getting a fell for how the pieces work.

 

let learn your pins and forks and simpler tactics.

 

The Russians always started a learner with  King and a Pawn for the pupil at one end, and a lone King for himself at the other with the invitation, "Mate me!"

I don't understand how someone with 10000 games 1000 blitz can have the audacity to give advice.

 

If it were my advice alone, I would never give it. But, I CAN recognise good advice when I get it.

The site does not really need people as rude as you are. 

Avatar of camter

I see he left. But, he will be back, looking out for @camter, too, I guess, I might not be  a Chess Champ, but there are some folk, mostly the nasty ones, who do not like me.

Avatar of IMKeto
Kai_sa wrote:
camter wrote:

I think that as soon as you learn the rules, you should study the simpler endgames especially pawn end games.

For youngsters, let them expriment with Openings, and getting a fell for how the pieces work.

 

let learn your pins and forks and simpler tactics.

 

The Russians always started a learner with  King and a Pawn for the pupil at one end, and a lone King for himself at the other with the invitation, "Mate me!"

I don't understand how someone with 10000 games 1000 blitz can have the audacity to give advice.

Unless youre an established titled player, an online rating means SQUAT.  Good advice is just that, no matter who gives it.

Avatar of troy7915
FishEyedFools wrote:
troy7915 wrote:
FishEyedFools wrote:

This has been discussed to DEATH, soooooooo....I will chip in my .02

Start with the endgame first.

Dont remember who said it:

"A mistake in the opening you can recover from.  A mistake in the middlegame will hurt you.  A mistake in the endgame will kill you"

 Yes, but by seriously studying the openings first you’ll benefit much more. You are beginning to calculate many moves ahead, for instance, especially when you can recite opening lines for hours, on memory alone. Then, when you are faced with endings, you find it much simpler to cover most variants.

  Also, by studying openings you learn strategies, tactics, at the most complex level, understanding the most fundamental ideas of making progress in the most complex situations.

I can memorize a book on open heart surgery, but you dont want me performing open heart surgery on anyone.  Just memorizing openings doesnt make you better.

Its the "Why" behind each move that makes you a better player.

 

  I’ve made that clear in the post after that. 

 

  That point was strictly for calculation purposes. You understand the ideas behind the opening lines, then memorization is the next natural step, if the brain is capable of it, since some are not.

 So this natural follow-up to understanding—memorization—I said helps with the calculation in the endgame as well, where there are less pieces on the board to account for.

Avatar of troy7915
gingerninja2003 wrote:
troy7915 wrote:
DeirdreSkye wrote:
troy7915 wrote:
FishEyedFools wrote:

This has been discussed to DEATH, soooooooo....I will chip in my .02

Start with the endgame first.

Dont remember who said it:

"A mistake in the opening you can recover from.  A mistake in the middlegame will hurt you.  A mistake in the endgame will kill you"

 Yes, but by seriously studying the openings first you’ll benefit much more. You are beginning to calculate many moves ahead, for instance, especially when you can recite opening lines for hours, on memory alone. Then, when you are faced with endings, you find it much simpler to cover most variants.

  Also, by studying openings you learn strategies, tactics, at the most complex level, understanding the most fundamental ideas of making progress in the most complex situations.

 

    Memorising opening lines won't help you get better , in either strategy or calculation. This is well known for decades.

Even understanding openings moves won't help at all your calculation or your middlegame understanding.

As for "when you are faced with endings, you find it much simpler to cover most variants" , that was a good laugh indeed. 

You obviously never studied endgame and you have no idea how difficult it is.

 

  You never studied openings perhaps, and you have no idea how difficult that is...Obviously, if you have less pieces on the board calculation becomes easier, you don’t have to be a genius to see that. So getting good at calculation with most pieces on board pays off when less pieces are present, in a much less complex situation. The lack of logic can, indeed, produce ‘a good laugh’.

  I wasn’t promoting memorization alone, but the one coming as a result of understanding the ideas behind, which is chess in all its splendor. Jumping to conclusions just to make a point is easy.

  As a result of a diligent study of various positions, memorization happens as a natural next step—that is if one has enough grey matter. If not, playing chess at a decent level is not possible.

  Finally, if one doesn’t know their openings in great detail, they won’t make it to the ending. So they are preparing for a phase of the game they won’t make it into...

Endgames are harder than they seem. Although you can calculate further ahead in an endgame, even grand masters make mistakes Quite commonly. Here's a recent example.


  move 55 Kc6?? is a game losing mistake and look at the other lines. If Hou found the best move then both players would've had to find the best move every time otherwise it's a loss and i've had a quick look at the drawing line and there are some difficult moves to find which wouldn't be your first instinct to play.. An opening error is recoverable. a middle game error is hard to get back from. An endgame error loses. 

If you're not convinced: another example.

after 30...b6 Ding get's into a bad endgame and at move 55 is losing yet Aronian (who's in the top 5) still managed to draw it!

endgames are really easy aren't they.

 

  Obviously mistakes happen at any stage, at any level. I never suggested that endgames are easy. I only pointed out that they are easier than openings, that’s all.

 And because they come after openings, one may not get to play the endings they studied.

Avatar of IMKeto
troy7915 wrote:
gingerninja2003 wrote:
troy7915 wrote:
DeirdreSkye wrote:
troy7915 wrote:
FishEyedFools wrote:

This has been discussed to DEATH, soooooooo....I will chip in my .02

Start with the endgame first.

Dont remember who said it:

"A mistake in the opening you can recover from.  A mistake in the middlegame will hurt you.  A mistake in the endgame will kill you"

 Yes, but by seriously studying the openings first you’ll benefit much more. You are beginning to calculate many moves ahead, for instance, especially when you can recite opening lines for hours, on memory alone. Then, when you are faced with endings, you find it much simpler to cover most variants.

  Also, by studying openings you learn strategies, tactics, at the most complex level, understanding the most fundamental ideas of making progress in the most complex situations.

 

    Memorising opening lines won't help you get better , in either strategy or calculation. This is well known for decades.

Even understanding openings moves won't help at all your calculation or your middlegame understanding.

As for "when you are faced with endings, you find it much simpler to cover most variants" , that was a good laugh indeed. 

You obviously never studied endgame and you have no idea how difficult it is.

 

  You never studied openings perhaps, and you have no idea how difficult that is...Obviously, if you have less pieces on the board calculation becomes easier, you don’t have to be a genius to see that. So getting good at calculation with most pieces on board pays off when less pieces are present, in a much less complex situation. The lack of logic can, indeed, produce ‘a good laugh’.

  I wasn’t promoting memorization alone, but the one coming as a result of understanding the ideas behind, which is chess in all its splendor. Jumping to conclusions just to make a point is easy.

  As a result of a diligent study of various positions, memorization happens as a natural next step—that is if one has enough grey matter. If not, playing chess at a decent level is not possible.

  Finally, if one doesn’t know their openings in great detail, they won’t make it to the ending. So they are preparing for a phase of the game they won’t make it into...

Endgames are harder than they seem. Although you can calculate further ahead in an endgame, even grand masters make mistakes Quite commonly. Here's a recent example.


  move 55 Kc6?? is a game losing mistake and look at the other lines. If Hou found the best move then both players would've had to find the best move every time otherwise it's a loss and i've had a quick look at the drawing line and there are some difficult moves to find which wouldn't be your first instinct to play.. An opening error is recoverable. a middle game error is hard to get back from. An endgame error loses. 

If you're not convinced: another example.

after 30...b6 Ding get's into a bad endgame and at move 55 is losing yet Aronian (who's in the top 5) still managed to draw it!

endgames are really easy aren't they.

 

  Obviously mistakes happen at any stage, at any level. I never suggested that endgames are easy. I only pointed out that they are easier than openings, that’s all.

 And because they come after openings, one may not get to play the endings they studied.

Openings are by far easier to play then endgames.  

Avatar of troy7915
DeirdreSkye wrote:
troy7915 wrote:
FishEyedFools wrote:
troy7915 wrote:
FishEyedFools wrote:

This has been discussed to DEATH, soooooooo....I will chip in my .02

Start with the endgame first.

Dont remember who said it:

"A mistake in the opening you can recover from.  A mistake in the middlegame will hurt you.  A mistake in the endgame will kill you"

 Yes, but by seriously studying the openings first you’ll benefit much more. You are beginning to calculate many moves ahead, for instance, especially when you can recite opening lines for hours, on memory alone. Then, when you are faced with endings, you find it much simpler to cover most variants.

  Also, by studying openings you learn strategies, tactics, at the most complex level, understanding the most fundamental ideas of making progress in the most complex situations.

I can memorize a book on open heart surgery, but you dont want me performing open heart surgery on anyone.  Just memorizing openings doesnt make you better.

Its the "Why" behind each move that makes you a better player.

 

  I’ve made that clear in the post after that. 

 

  That point was strictly for calculation purposes. You understand the ideas behind the opening lines, then memorization is the next natural step, if the brain is capable of it, since some are not.

 So this natural follow-up to understanding—memorization—I said helps with the calculation in the endgame as well, where there are less pieces on the board to account for.

   Yeah , indeed , memorising lines helps you play the endgames better. The more lines you memorise the better you will play the endgames. 

 

 

 

  It improves the calculation skills, simply because your visual memory is improved. Your memory will be able to hold more and more moves, so you can look further and further. down the line. That’s what I said. 

  To actually play better you need the other factor that goes with calculation, namely evaluation. And here again evaluating a simpler position is easier than a more complex one, like in the opening.

Avatar of troy7915
FishEyedFools wrote:
troy7915 wrote:
gingerninja2003 wrote:
troy7915 wrote:
DeirdreSkye wrote:
troy7915 wrote:
FishEyedFools wrote:

This has been discussed to DEATH, soooooooo....I will chip in my .02

Start with the endgame first.

Dont remember who said it:

"A mistake in the opening you can recover from.  A mistake in the middlegame will hurt you.  A mistake in the endgame will kill you"

 Yes, but by seriously studying the openings first you’ll benefit much more. You are beginning to calculate many moves ahead, for instance, especially when you can recite opening lines for hours, on memory alone. Then, when you are faced with endings, you find it much simpler to cover most variants.

  Also, by studying openings you learn strategies, tactics, at the most complex level, understanding the most fundamental ideas of making progress in the most complex situations.

 

    Memorising opening lines won't help you get better , in either strategy or calculation. This is well known for decades.

Even understanding openings moves won't help at all your calculation or your middlegame understanding.

As for "when you are faced with endings, you find it much simpler to cover most variants" , that was a good laugh indeed. 

You obviously never studied endgame and you have no idea how difficult it is.

 

  You never studied openings perhaps, and you have no idea how difficult that is...Obviously, if you have less pieces on the board calculation becomes easier, you don’t have to be a genius to see that. So getting good at calculation with most pieces on board pays off when less pieces are present, in a much less complex situation. The lack of logic can, indeed, produce ‘a good laugh’.

  I wasn’t promoting memorization alone, but the one coming as a result of understanding the ideas behind, which is chess in all its splendor. Jumping to conclusions just to make a point is easy.

  As a result of a diligent study of various positions, memorization happens as a natural next step—that is if one has enough grey matter. If not, playing chess at a decent level is not possible.

  Finally, if one doesn’t know their openings in great detail, they won’t make it to the ending. So they are preparing for a phase of the game they won’t make it into...

Endgames are harder than they seem. Although you can calculate further ahead in an endgame, even grand masters make mistakes Quite commonly. Here's a recent example.


  move 55 Kc6?? is a game losing mistake and look at the other lines. If Hou found the best move then both players would've had to find the best move every time otherwise it's a loss and i've had a quick look at the drawing line and there are some difficult moves to find which wouldn't be your first instinct to play.. An opening error is recoverable. a middle game error is hard to get back from. An endgame error loses. 

If you're not convinced: another example.

after 30...b6 Ding get's into a bad endgame and at move 55 is losing yet Aronian (who's in the top 5) still managed to draw it!

endgames are really easy aren't they.

 

  Obviously mistakes happen at any stage, at any level. I never suggested that endgames are easy. I only pointed out that they are easier than openings, that’s all.

 And because they come after openings, one may not get to play the endings they studied.

Openings are by far easier to play then endgames.  

 

 Against amateurs. Against someone who studied their lines, you can lose in less than 20 moves. A slight slip-up and you fall for a trap, which trap is not obvious even for some weaker computers, because it involves many games played in that line, yet it’s not obvious why a move is a trap, except if you study it.

 Kasparov himself screwed up in the Caro-Kann like at move 7th and decided to resign after 19 moves...

Avatar of troy7915
DeirdreSkye wrote:
gingerninja2003 wrote:
troy7915 wrote:
DeirdreSkye wrote:
troy7915 wrote:
FishEyedFools wrote:

This has been discussed to DEATH, soooooooo....I will chip in my .02

Start with the endgame first.

Dont remember who said it:

"A mistake in the opening you can recover from.  A mistake in the middlegame will hurt you.  A mistake in the endgame will kill you"

 Yes, but by seriously studying the openings first you’ll benefit much more. You are beginning to calculate many moves ahead, for instance, especially when you can recite opening lines for hours, on memory alone. Then, when you are faced with endings, you find it much simpler to cover most variants.

  Also, by studying openings you learn strategies, tactics, at the most complex level, understanding the most fundamental ideas of making progress in the most complex situations.

 

    Memorising opening lines won't help you get better , in either strategy or calculation. This is well known for decades.

Even understanding openings moves won't help at all your calculation or your middlegame understanding.

As for "when you are faced with endings, you find it much simpler to cover most variants" , that was a good laugh indeed. 

You obviously never studied endgame and you have no idea how difficult it is.

 

  You never studied openings perhaps, and you have no idea how difficult that is...Obviously, if you have less pieces on the board calculation becomes easier, you don’t have to be a genius to see that. So getting good at calculation with most pieces on board pays off when less pieces are present, in a much less complex situation. The lack of logic can, indeed, produce ‘a good laugh’.

  I wasn’t promoting memorization alone, but the one coming as a result of understanding the ideas behind, which is chess in all its splendor. Jumping to conclusions just to make a point is easy.

  As a result of a diligent study of various positions, memorization happens as a natural next step—that is if one has enough grey matter. If not, playing chess at a decent level is not possible.

  Finally, if one doesn’t know their openings in great detail, they won’t make it to the ending. So they are preparing for a phase of the game they won’t make it into...

Endgames are harder than they seem. Although you can calculate further ahead in an endgame, even grand masters make mistakes Quite commonly. Here's a recent example.


  move 55 Kc6?? is a game losing mistake and look at the other lines. If Hou found the best move then both players would've had to find the best move every time otherwise it's a loss and i've had a quick look at the drawing line and there are some difficult moves to find which wouldn't be your first instinct to play.. An opening error is recoverable. a middle game error is hard to get back from. An endgame error loses. 

If you're not convinced: another example.

after 30...b6 Ding get's into a bad endgame and at move 55 is losing yet Aronian (who's in the top 5) still managed to draw it!

endgames are really easy aren't they.

      Very good examples , thank you!

Still impossible to convince an ignorant that thinks endgame is easier than opening.

 

  Of course it is easier, it is not easy, but it is easier. And openings come first, which means if you screw up there will be no endings.

Avatar of troy7915
DeirdreSkye wrote:
troy7915 wrote:

 

 And because they come after openings, one may not get to play the endings they studied.

    There is a tiny little problem with everything you say. 

If you superificially study openings then everything is just like you say it. The problem is that many times a move(especially exchanges) directly affects the middlegame and the endgame in many ways. If you can't understand how it affects the endgame you can't understand how it affects the middlegame and you can't even understand the opening other than superficially.

    That is why one of the most gifted players of all times said ,Capablanca,  said:

In order to improve your game, you must study the endgame before everything else. For whereas the endings can be studied and mastered by themselves, the middle game and opening must be studied in relation to the end game.

  

 

  Nowadays, the study of the openings goes all the way to the endgames, even to the mate or draw, in most lines. If you don’t study them superficially, that is.