studying Endgame first, or Openings.

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Avatar of IMKeto
troy7915 wrote:
FishEyedFools wrote:
troy7915 wrote:
gingerninja2003 wrote:
troy7915 wrote:
DeirdreSkye wrote:
troy7915 wrote:
FishEyedFools wrote:

This has been discussed to DEATH, soooooooo....I will chip in my .02

Start with the endgame first.

Dont remember who said it:

"A mistake in the opening you can recover from.  A mistake in the middlegame will hurt you.  A mistake in the endgame will kill you"

 Yes, but by seriously studying the openings first you’ll benefit much more. You are beginning to calculate many moves ahead, for instance, especially when you can recite opening lines for hours, on memory alone. Then, when you are faced with endings, you find it much simpler to cover most variants.

  Also, by studying openings you learn strategies, tactics, at the most complex level, understanding the most fundamental ideas of making progress in the most complex situations.

 

    Memorising opening lines won't help you get better , in either strategy or calculation. This is well known for decades.

Even understanding openings moves won't help at all your calculation or your middlegame understanding.

As for "when you are faced with endings, you find it much simpler to cover most variants" , that was a good laugh indeed. 

You obviously never studied endgame and you have no idea how difficult it is.

 

  You never studied openings perhaps, and you have no idea how difficult that is...Obviously, if you have less pieces on the board calculation becomes easier, you don’t have to be a genius to see that. So getting good at calculation with most pieces on board pays off when less pieces are present, in a much less complex situation. The lack of logic can, indeed, produce ‘a good laugh’.

  I wasn’t promoting memorization alone, but the one coming as a result of understanding the ideas behind, which is chess in all its splendor. Jumping to conclusions just to make a point is easy.

  As a result of a diligent study of various positions, memorization happens as a natural next step—that is if one has enough grey matter. If not, playing chess at a decent level is not possible.

  Finally, if one doesn’t know their openings in great detail, they won’t make it to the ending. So they are preparing for a phase of the game they won’t make it into...

Endgames are harder than they seem. Although you can calculate further ahead in an endgame, even grand masters make mistakes Quite commonly. Here's a recent example.


  move 55 Kc6?? is a game losing mistake and look at the other lines. If Hou found the best move then both players would've had to find the best move every time otherwise it's a loss and i've had a quick look at the drawing line and there are some difficult moves to find which wouldn't be your first instinct to play.. An opening error is recoverable. a middle game error is hard to get back from. An endgame error loses. 

If you're not convinced: another example.

after 30...b6 Ding get's into a bad endgame and at move 55 is losing yet Aronian (who's in the top 5) still managed to draw it!

endgames are really easy aren't they.

 

  Obviously mistakes happen at any stage, at any level. I never suggested that endgames are easy. I only pointed out that they are easier than openings, that’s all.

 And because they come after openings, one may not get to play the endings they studied.

Openings are by far easier to play then endgames.  

 

 Against amateurs. Against someone who studied their lines, you can lose in less than 20 moves. A slight slip-up and you fall for a trap, which trap is not obvious even for some weaker computers, because it involves many games played in that line, yet it’s not obvious why a move is a trap, except if you study it.

 Kasparov himself screwed up in the Caro-Kann like at move 7th and decided to resign after 19 moves...

Fortunately i dont play against IM's and GM's so opening prep is not a concern.  I play a line of the Benko Gambit that is considered "busted" at top level play.  What does that matter to me?  It doesnt.  I can tell you this.  In 40+ years of playing, i have NEVER been beaten by someone with a "prepared" opening.  I have had kids tell me after a game that they lost because I didnt follow opening theory, or they forgot there theory, or mixed up there theory.  I tell them to play the board, not theory.

Avatar of troy7915
Morphysrevenges wrote:

learn a simple forcing opening such as the colle. you wont get much out of the opening against stronger players that know what they are doing. However, you won't get run over either. Your mission is to survive to the middle game and start swapping pieces every chance you get. 

 

the closer you get to the endgame, the weaker and weaker the vast majority of your opponents will become. It is absolutely humorous sometimes to see how players that know their openings and are decent at tactics literally fall apart in the endgame.

 

Oh, and after you have spent enough time learning that forcing opening well enough to survive, then start studying endings a lot. YOU WILL SEE YOUR RATING INCREASE

 

  Learning openings well enough to survive is too weak. You must study them harder, to win, with that objective in mind!

Avatar of troy7915
FishEyedFools wrote:
troy7915 wrote:
FishEyedFools wrote:
troy7915 wrote:
gingerninja2003 wrote:
troy7915 wrote:
DeirdreSkye wrote:
troy7915 wrote:
FishEyedFools wrote:

This has been discussed to DEATH, soooooooo....I will chip in my .02

Start with the endgame first.

Dont remember who said it:

"A mistake in the opening you can recover from.  A mistake in the middlegame will hurt you.  A mistake in the endgame will kill you"

 Yes, but by seriously studying the openings first you’ll benefit much more. You are beginning to calculate many moves ahead, for instance, especially when you can recite opening lines for hours, on memory alone. Then, when you are faced with endings, you find it much simpler to cover most variants.

  Also, by studying openings you learn strategies, tactics, at the most complex level, understanding the most fundamental ideas of making progress in the most complex situations.

 

    Memorising opening lines won't help you get better , in either strategy or calculation. This is well known for decades.

Even understanding openings moves won't help at all your calculation or your middlegame understanding.

As for "when you are faced with endings, you find it much simpler to cover most variants" , that was a good laugh indeed. 

You obviously never studied endgame and you have no idea how difficult it is.

 

  You never studied openings perhaps, and you have no idea how difficult that is...Obviously, if you have less pieces on the board calculation becomes easier, you don’t have to be a genius to see that. So getting good at calculation with most pieces on board pays off when less pieces are present, in a much less complex situation. The lack of logic can, indeed, produce ‘a good laugh’.

  I wasn’t promoting memorization alone, but the one coming as a result of understanding the ideas behind, which is chess in all its splendor. Jumping to conclusions just to make a point is easy.

  As a result of a diligent study of various positions, memorization happens as a natural next step—that is if one has enough grey matter. If not, playing chess at a decent level is not possible.

  Finally, if one doesn’t know their openings in great detail, they won’t make it to the ending. So they are preparing for a phase of the game they won’t make it into...

Endgames are harder than they seem. Although you can calculate further ahead in an endgame, even grand masters make mistakes Quite commonly. Here's a recent example.


  move 55 Kc6?? is a game losing mistake and look at the other lines. If Hou found the best move then both players would've had to find the best move every time otherwise it's a loss and i've had a quick look at the drawing line and there are some difficult moves to find which wouldn't be your first instinct to play.. An opening error is recoverable. a middle game error is hard to get back from. An endgame error loses. 

If you're not convinced: another example.

after 30...b6 Ding get's into a bad endgame and at move 55 is losing yet Aronian (who's in the top 5) still managed to draw it!

endgames are really easy aren't they.

 

  Obviously mistakes happen at any stage, at any level. I never suggested that endgames are easy. I only pointed out that they are easier than openings, that’s all.

 And because they come after openings, one may not get to play the endings they studied.

Openings are by far easier to play then endgames.  

 

 Against amateurs. Against someone who studied their lines, you can lose in less than 20 moves. A slight slip-up and you fall for a trap, which trap is not obvious even for some weaker computers, because it involves many games played in that line, yet it’s not obvious why a move is a trap, except if you study it.

 Kasparov himself screwed up in the Caro-Kann like at move 7th and decided to resign after 19 moves...

Fortunately i dont play against IM's and GM's so opening prep is not a concern.  I play a line of the Benko Gambit that is considered "busted" at top level play.  What does that matter to me?  It doesnt.  I can tell you this.  In 40+ years of playing, i have NEVER been beaten by someone with a "prepared" opening.  I have had kids tell me after a game that they lost because I didnt follow opening theory, or they forgot there theory, or mixed up there theory.  I tell them to play the board, not theory.

 

  Sure, but you can always apply similar ideas even if the position changes a bit. That assumes that you thoroughly understand the main ideas of every line that you play.

Avatar of IMKeto
troy7915 wrote:
FishEyedFools wrote:
troy7915 wrote:
FishEyedFools wrote:
troy7915 wrote:
gingerninja2003 wrote:
troy7915 wrote:
DeirdreSkye wrote:
troy7915 wrote:
FishEyedFools wrote:

This has been discussed to DEATH, soooooooo....I will chip in my .02

Start with the endgame first.

Dont remember who said it:

"A mistake in the opening you can recover from.  A mistake in the middlegame will hurt you.  A mistake in the endgame will kill you"

 Yes, but by seriously studying the openings first you’ll benefit much more. You are beginning to calculate many moves ahead, for instance, especially when you can recite opening lines for hours, on memory alone. Then, when you are faced with endings, you find it much simpler to cover most variants.

  Also, by studying openings you learn strategies, tactics, at the most complex level, understanding the most fundamental ideas of making progress in the most complex situations.

 

    Memorising opening lines won't help you get better , in either strategy or calculation. This is well known for decades.

Even understanding openings moves won't help at all your calculation or your middlegame understanding.

As for "when you are faced with endings, you find it much simpler to cover most variants" , that was a good laugh indeed. 

You obviously never studied endgame and you have no idea how difficult it is.

 

  You never studied openings perhaps, and you have no idea how difficult that is...Obviously, if you have less pieces on the board calculation becomes easier, you don’t have to be a genius to see that. So getting good at calculation with most pieces on board pays off when less pieces are present, in a much less complex situation. The lack of logic can, indeed, produce ‘a good laugh’.

  I wasn’t promoting memorization alone, but the one coming as a result of understanding the ideas behind, which is chess in all its splendor. Jumping to conclusions just to make a point is easy.

  As a result of a diligent study of various positions, memorization happens as a natural next step—that is if one has enough grey matter. If not, playing chess at a decent level is not possible.

  Finally, if one doesn’t know their openings in great detail, they won’t make it to the ending. So they are preparing for a phase of the game they won’t make it into...

Endgames are harder than they seem. Although you can calculate further ahead in an endgame, even grand masters make mistakes Quite commonly. Here's a recent example.


  move 55 Kc6?? is a game losing mistake and look at the other lines. If Hou found the best move then both players would've had to find the best move every time otherwise it's a loss and i've had a quick look at the drawing line and there are some difficult moves to find which wouldn't be your first instinct to play.. An opening error is recoverable. a middle game error is hard to get back from. An endgame error loses. 

If you're not convinced: another example.

after 30...b6 Ding get's into a bad endgame and at move 55 is losing yet Aronian (who's in the top 5) still managed to draw it!

endgames are really easy aren't they.

 

  Obviously mistakes happen at any stage, at any level. I never suggested that endgames are easy. I only pointed out that they are easier than openings, that’s all.

 And because they come after openings, one may not get to play the endings they studied.

Openings are by far easier to play then endgames.  

 

 Against amateurs. Against someone who studied their lines, you can lose in less than 20 moves. A slight slip-up and you fall for a trap, which trap is not obvious even for some weaker computers, because it involves many games played in that line, yet it’s not obvious why a move is a trap, except if you study it.

 Kasparov himself screwed up in the Caro-Kann like at move 7th and decided to resign after 19 moves...

Fortunately i dont play against IM's and GM's so opening prep is not a concern.  I play a line of the Benko Gambit that is considered "busted" at top level play.  What does that matter to me?  It doesnt.  I can tell you this.  In 40+ years of playing, i have NEVER been beaten by someone with a "prepared" opening.  I have had kids tell me after a game that they lost because I didnt follow opening theory, or they forgot there theory, or mixed up there theory.  I tell them to play the board, not theory.

 

  Sure, but you can always apply similar ideas even if the position changes a bit. That assumes that you thoroughly understand the main ideas of every line that you play.

I dont need to understand the main ideas of every line i play.  What i need to understand is pawn structure, and piece placement.

Avatar of troy7915

 Obviously, endings must be studied as well. I played once a blitz against a strong amateur and we exchanged a lot of pieces, but the last round of exchanges was calculated to win the game, whereas he was convinced it would be a draw. A classic example of king and pawn vs king, where he wasn’t aware of the opposition, so there was nothing for him to calculate, even though it was easy calculation, but he simply didn’t know the theory.

Avatar of troy7915
FishEyedFools wrote:
troy7915 wrote:
FishEyedFools wrote:
troy7915 wrote:
FishEyedFools wrote:
troy7915 wrote:
gingerninja2003 wrote:
troy7915 wrote:
DeirdreSkye wrote:
troy7915 wrote:
FishEyedFools wrote:

This has been discussed to DEATH, soooooooo....I will chip in my .02

Start with the endgame first.

Dont remember who said it:

"A mistake in the opening you can recover from.  A mistake in the middlegame will hurt you.  A mistake in the endgame will kill you"

 Yes, but by seriously studying the openings first you’ll benefit much more. You are beginning to calculate many moves ahead, for instance, especially when you can recite opening lines for hours, on memory alone. Then, when you are faced with endings, you find it much simpler to cover most variants.

  Also, by studying openings you learn strategies, tactics, at the most complex level, understanding the most fundamental ideas of making progress in the most complex situations.

 

    Memorising opening lines won't help you get better , in either strategy or calculation. This is well known for decades.

Even understanding openings moves won't help at all your calculation or your middlegame understanding.

As for "when you are faced with endings, you find it much simpler to cover most variants" , that was a good laugh indeed. 

You obviously never studied endgame and you have no idea how difficult it is.

 

  You never studied openings perhaps, and you have no idea how difficult that is...Obviously, if you have less pieces on the board calculation becomes easier, you don’t have to be a genius to see that. So getting good at calculation with most pieces on board pays off when less pieces are present, in a much less complex situation. The lack of logic can, indeed, produce ‘a good laugh’.

  I wasn’t promoting memorization alone, but the one coming as a result of understanding the ideas behind, which is chess in all its splendor. Jumping to conclusions just to make a point is easy.

  As a result of a diligent study of various positions, memorization happens as a natural next step—that is if one has enough grey matter. If not, playing chess at a decent level is not possible.

  Finally, if one doesn’t know their openings in great detail, they won’t make it to the ending. So they are preparing for a phase of the game they won’t make it into...

Endgames are harder than they seem. Although you can calculate further ahead in an endgame, even grand masters make mistakes Quite commonly. Here's a recent example.


  move 55 Kc6?? is a game losing mistake and look at the other lines. If Hou found the best move then both players would've had to find the best move every time otherwise it's a loss and i've had a quick look at the drawing line and there are some difficult moves to find which wouldn't be your first instinct to play.. An opening error is recoverable. a middle game error is hard to get back from. An endgame error loses. 

If you're not convinced: another example.

after 30...b6 Ding get's into a bad endgame and at move 55 is losing yet Aronian (who's in the top 5) still managed to draw it!

endgames are really easy aren't they.

 

  Obviously mistakes happen at any stage, at any level. I never suggested that endgames are easy. I only pointed out that they are easier than openings, that’s all.

 And because they come after openings, one may not get to play the endings they studied.

Openings are by far easier to play then endgames.  

 

 Against amateurs. Against someone who studied their lines, you can lose in less than 20 moves. A slight slip-up and you fall for a trap, which trap is not obvious even for some weaker computers, because it involves many games played in that line, yet it’s not obvious why a move is a trap, except if you study it.

 Kasparov himself screwed up in the Caro-Kann like at move 7th and decided to resign after 19 moves...

Fortunately i dont play against IM's and GM's so opening prep is not a concern.  I play a line of the Benko Gambit that is considered "busted" at top level play.  What does that matter to me?  It doesnt.  I can tell you this.  In 40+ years of playing, i have NEVER been beaten by someone with a "prepared" opening.  I have had kids tell me after a game that they lost because I didnt follow opening theory, or they forgot there theory, or mixed up there theory.  I tell them to play the board, not theory.

 

  Sure, but you can always apply similar ideas even if the position changes a bit. That assumes that you thoroughly understand the main ideas of every line that you play.

I dont need to understand the main ideas of every line i play. 

 

  I do.

Avatar of kindaspongey

"... The game might be divided into three parts, i.e.:- 1. The opening. 2. The middle-game. 3. The end-game. There is one thing you must strive for, to be equally efficient in the three parts. Whether you are a strong or a weak player, you should try to be of equal strength in the three parts. ..." - Capablanca

Does it really make sense to argue about what is easier? Doesn't the issue depend on the degree of opening proficiency that one is seeking, the degree of endgame proficiency that one is seeking, the sorts of talents that one has, the sort of resources that one has, what one enjoys, etc.? Is any of this stuff quantifiable?

Avatar of troy7915

I was talking about seeking the highest degree of proficiency in opening,  with ‘talents’ such as exceptional memory and sound logic. If one doesn’t qualify, then seek alternatives.

Avatar of SteamGear

Those who love opening study argue for opening study.

Those who love middle-game study argue for middle-game study.

Those love endgame study argue for endgame study.

Who's correct? All of them. grin.png

The best approach: study all three aspects of the game. Problem solved.

Voila: a balanced player, competent at every phase.

Avatar of kindaspongey
troy7915 wrote:

I was talking about seeking the highest degree of proficiency in opening, ...

You mean like Kasparov? If so, what vintage of Kasparov?

Avatar of kindaspongey
troy7915 wrote:

... with ‘talents’ such as exceptional memory and sound logic. If one doesn’t qualify, then seek alternatives.

Are memory and logic yes-or-no things or matters of degree? Who decides what qualifies, and, come to think of it, what are we thinking of qualifying for?

Avatar of WalangAlam

Studying endgame will develop important chess skills such as calculating ability, planning, exploiting weakness, active play. These skills practiced over a period of time becomes second nature; all of which is applicable to opening play and middlegame but can be harnessed effectively at endgame practice,

Avatar of troy7915
kindaspongey wrote:
troy7915 wrote:

I was talking about seeking the highest degree of proficiency in opening, ...

You mean like Kasparov? If so, what vintage of Kasparov?

 

 No, not like someone in particular. But seeking the highest degree of excellence.

Avatar of troy7915
kindaspongey wrote:
troy7915 wrote:

... with ‘talents’ such as exceptional memory and sound logic. If one doesn’t qualify, then seek alternatives.

Are memory and logic yes-or-no things or matters of degree? Who decides what qualifies, and, come to think of it, what are we thinking of qualifying for?

 

  The player himself decides. Like Spassky knew he wasn’t a fan of analyzing too much, and instead preferred to be creative about it. Which is also why he lost a crucial game with Fischer.

Avatar of troy7915
SteamGear wrote:

Those who love opening study argue for opening study.

Those who love middle-game study argue for middle-game study.

Those love endgame study argue for endgame study.

Who's correct? All of them.

The best approach: study all three aspects of the game. Problem solved.

Voila: a balanced player, competent at every phase.

 

  Because of the sheer volume of openings, providing one doesn’t choose the simplest ones but the most complex that exist, which help you grow as a player, there is no time for that ideal to become reality.

Avatar of gingerninja2003
troy7915 wrote:
gingerninja2003 wrote:
troy7915 wrote:
DeirdreSkye wrote:
troy7915 wrote:
FishEyedFools wrote:

This has been discussed to DEATH, soooooooo....I will chip in my .02

Start with the endgame first.

Dont remember who said it:

"A mistake in the opening you can recover from.  A mistake in the middlegame will hurt you.  A mistake in the endgame will kill you"

 Yes, but by seriously studying the openings first you’ll benefit much more. You are beginning to calculate many moves ahead, for instance, especially when you can recite opening lines for hours, on memory alone. Then, when you are faced with endings, you find it much simpler to cover most variants.

  Also, by studying openings you learn strategies, tactics, at the most complex level, understanding the most fundamental ideas of making progress in the most complex situations.

 

    Memorising opening lines won't help you get better , in either strategy or calculation. This is well known for decades.

Even understanding openings moves won't help at all your calculation or your middlegame understanding.

As for "when you are faced with endings, you find it much simpler to cover most variants" , that was a good laugh indeed. 

You obviously never studied endgame and you have no idea how difficult it is.

 

  You never studied openings perhaps, and you have no idea how difficult that is...Obviously, if you have less pieces on the board calculation becomes easier, you don’t have to be a genius to see that. So getting good at calculation with most pieces on board pays off when less pieces are present, in a much less complex situation. The lack of logic can, indeed, produce ‘a good laugh’.

  I wasn’t promoting memorization alone, but the one coming as a result of understanding the ideas behind, which is chess in all its splendor. Jumping to conclusions just to make a point is easy.

  As a result of a diligent study of various positions, memorization happens as a natural next step—that is if one has enough grey matter. If not, playing chess at a decent level is not possible.

  Finally, if one doesn’t know their openings in great detail, they won’t make it to the ending. So they are preparing for a phase of the game they won’t make it into...

Endgames are harder than they seem. Although you can calculate further ahead in an endgame, even grand masters make mistakes Quite commonly. Here's a recent example.


  move 55 Kc6?? is a game losing mistake and look at the other lines. If Hou found the best move then both players would've had to find the best move every time otherwise it's a loss and i've had a quick look at the drawing line and there are some difficult moves to find which wouldn't be your first instinct to play.. An opening error is recoverable. a middle game error is hard to get back from. An endgame error loses. 

If you're not convinced: another example.

after 30...b6 Ding get's into a bad endgame and at move 55 is losing yet Aronian (who's in the top 5) still managed to draw it!

endgames are really easy aren't they.

 

  Obviously mistakes happen at any stage, at any level. I never suggested that endgames are easy. I only pointed out that they are easier than openings, that’s all.

 And because they come after openings, one may not get to play the endings they studied.

Endgames are much more difficult than openings. Even if you don't obey opening principles you get a horrible position but not a position that's tactically losing. Assuming you're not playing a grand master or a chess engine then you can rely on winning by a tactic in the middle game and even if you didn't get one in the middle game as long as you have better endgame knowledge than your opponent then your opponent will make a mistake and the tiniest of endgame errors cost the game.

The reason many new players make the mistake of revising openings before anything else is because openings are easy! A beginner can't be bothered to know all these positional concepts and more importantly tactics as they are really difficult.

importance scale:

endgames=middle games >>>>>>>>>>>>> openings.  

Avatar of troy7915

Openings may seem easy for beginners if they don’t bother to understand the ideas behind each line, and how one move changes everything, compared with another move, what new things are made possible by a new move compared with the previous one, why is a main line ‘main’ and not another one—which in some cases shifts like fashion, but in others there are some obvious reasons.

  Openings offer the greatest freedom for creative expression.

Avatar of gingerninja2003
troy7915 wrote:

Openings may seem easy for beginners if they don’t bother to understand the ideas behind each line, and how one move changes everything, compared with another move, what new things are made possible by a new move compared with the previous one, why is a main line ‘main’ and not another one—which in some cases shifts like fashion, but in others there are some obvious reasons.

  Openings offer the greatest freedom for creative expression.

You haven't explained why openings are important.

One move may change everything (which is true with every stage of a chess game) but that doesn't mean the alternative moves are bad they just lead to a different yet sound position. You can get to a decent position by just making moves that look good and they'll probably lead to a sound position. You may be right that openings are fascinating but that doesn't mean they're important.

You also fail to show how openings are harder and more important than endgames.

Avatar of kindaspongey
gingerninja2003 wrote:

... One move may change everything (which is true with every stage of a chess game) but that doesn't mean the alternative moves are bad they just lead to a different yet sound position. You can get to a decent position by just making moves that look good and they'll probably lead to a sound position. You may be right that openings are fascinating but that doesn't mean they're important. ...

"... In the middlegame and especially the endgame you can get a long way through relying on general principles and the calculation of variations; in the opening you can go very wrong very quickly if you don't know what ideas have worked and what haven't in the past. It has taken hundreds of years of trial and error by great minds like Alekhine and, in our day, Kasparov to reach our current knowledge of the openings. ..." - GM Neil McDonald (2001)

Avatar of SteamGear
troy7915 wrote:
SteamGear wrote:

Those who love opening study argue for opening study.

Those who love middle-game study argue for middle-game study.

Those love endgame study argue for endgame study.

Who's correct? All of them.

The best approach: study all three aspects of the game. Problem solved.

Voila: a balanced player, competent at every phase.

 

  Because of the sheer volume of openings, providing one doesn’t choose the simplest ones but the most complex that exist, which help you grow as a player, there is no time for that ideal to become reality.

Well, sure. That's what a repertoire is for—making opening study manageable by narrowing one's focus to a few key openings/defenses.

(Personally, I think the sweet spot for the average player to focus on is: one white opening, one e4 defense, and one d4 defense.)