The BEST solution for the draw problem

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Avatar of Meadmaker

We don't really need to wait and see what would happen.  We know enough about chess to know that there would still be a lot of draws.  Oh, and there is also the fact that if people really had to work to avoid the draw, it would skew the game in favor of the white player much more than today.

 

I saw one of the articles on chess.com's front page where Vladmir Kramnik worked with DeepMind, makers of alphazero, to study ways to end the draw problem.  They came up with something that I considered a good recommendation.  Outlaw castling.  It sounds like a good idea to me, but I suspect it is too much of a radical change for it to catch on.

 

Or we could just play Shogi instead.

Avatar of finnsteur
Meadmaker a écrit :

We don't really need to wait and see what would happen.  We know enough about chess to know that there would still be a lot of draws.  Oh, and there is also the fact that if people really had to work to avoid the draw, it would skew the game in favor of the white player much more than today.

 

I saw one of the articles on chess.com's front page where Vladmir Kramnik worked with DeepMind, makers of alphazero, to study ways to end the draw problem.  They came up with something that I considered a good recommendation.  Outlaw castling.  It sounds like a good idea to me, but I suspect it is too much of a radical change for it to catch on.

 

Or we could just play Shogi instead.

 

You didn't adress my point that the only reason we see that many draws at the top level is because black players/ players out of their preparation / players who slipped a little bit in the early midgame all tend to PLAY FOR THE DRAW.

The game is not naturally entering a drawn state, the players that think he is a little worse tend to avoid complications and go for safe line, tend to exchanges pieces, tend to try to "save the boat".

With my Idea this strategy wouldn't work. You always would try to create more tactics and complications even if you think that you're objectively a little bit worse, chess is a very complicated game you can play like that. And if you don't want to have to play risky in "bad positions" prepare yourself better in the opening, play assymetrical opening where you don't have to take risk to create more chances.

To summarize my point : Don't let one player that want to "save the boat" make the game dull. No matter when in the game be it in the opening or later when in the midgame. PLayers should always strive for complications : No way out like in shogi.

 

Avatar of IMKeto
finnsteur wrote:
IMBacon a écrit :

What exactly is this "draw problem" people are talking about?

Check the articles by krmanik and Gserper :

https://www.chess.com/article/view/reduce-draws-chess?ncc=1#first_new_comment

https://www.chess.com/article/view/no-castling-chess-kramnik-alphazero?ncc=4#first_new_comment

 

I'm talking about draws at the top level everyone know of the problem and lately a lot of people try to come up with solutions.

Understood.  But it is their livelihood.  Its how they make money.  If they want to draw so be it.  I understand this is "boring" to us everyday players, but i dont think we should be telling the worlds best players how to play, and to make the game more exciting for us. 

Just my .02

Avatar of finnsteur
IMBacon a écrit :
finnsteur wrote:
IMBacon a écrit :

What exactly is this "draw problem" people are talking about?

Check the articles by krmanik and Gserper :

https://www.chess.com/article/view/reduce-draws-chess?ncc=1#first_new_comment

https://www.chess.com/article/view/no-castling-chess-kramnik-alphazero?ncc=4#first_new_comment

 

I'm talking about draws at the top level everyone know of the problem and lately a lot of people try to come up with solutions.

Understood.  But it is their livelihood.  Its how they make money.  If they want to draw so be it.  I understand this is "boring" to us everyday players, but i dont think we should be telling the worlds best players how to play, and to make the game more exciting for us. 

Just my .02

 

It doesn't have to be every tournament.

My Idea can be implemanted sometimes. It's just 1 very fun and interresting tournament. 

What do they do make chess interresting right now ? 

They make more and more rapid and blitz event. Because they're more decisive.

Avatar of Meadmaker

I think you underestimate just how "drawish" Chess is.  

Avatar of finnsteur
Meadmaker a écrit :

I think you underestimate just how "drawish" Chess is.  

 

I don't think so. There are openings with fewer drawing percentage than others. People would choose and enter thoses positions by mutual agreement. I think you underestimate the fighting possibility in chess. If the two players want to play for the win then it will finish as a blood battle like in blitz.

I'm absolutely sure we have to test this idea before condemning it. You could be surprised by the fighting spirit people would be capable of. You don't seem to understand that GM with black play for the draw almost all the time starting on move 1. They're happy with the draw with black. They want to "equilize" and that's it. Review interview from champion you'll see this. 

 

I'm sure giving them this tournament where a draw with black means nothing would make a huge dfference in their style of play. 

Avatar of Tja_05

Every player goes for the win as Black, but the fact remains that Black can only realistically go for the win if White screws up-- twice.

Avatar of finnsteur
JustARandomPatzer a écrit :

Every player goes for the win as Black, but the fact remains that Black can only realistically go for the win if White screws up-- twice.

That's just not true at the top level. People play passive opening with the Idea of drawing the game where they could play agressive counterattack.

This Idea would force black players to only play agressive counterattack (Najdrof, Sveshnikov, grunfeld, king's indian...). 

The only players who do that (MVL for example) either :

- finally think they're not that well positionned and opt for playing for the draw after the opening.

- reverse the situation and it's white who start to play for the draw.

In my system after having played those opening they would still play for the win even if they "don't feel like the position should be played for the win". Same for white.

Playing for the draw wouldn't be an option they would have to create complications and think outside the box.

Avatar of BlackWarmaster

win 1, loss -1, draw -0.5

Avatar of BlackWarmaster

...and only a positive amount of points can allow a player to be declared winner

Avatar of lfPatriotGames
finnsteur wrote:

Ahahah you're crazy

It COULD happen but it wouldn't ^^

And you know it, you wouldn't bet your house on that I'm sure ^^

Same things for them !

They have a choice, either playing for the win (not too risky ! just for the win) or playing for the draw hoping their opponent self destruct.

Will they really think their opponent will self destruct ? they would look them in the eyes, look at the other games already over, lots of decisive match and think to themselves "what if he just never take too many risk ?".

You see by playing like you said there's a lot of chances you're just gonna leave the tournament early, because no one want to selfdestruct, the opponent would just torture à la carlsen but no one would voluntarly play for the draw I'm sure of it. It's a big gamble you don't even seem to understand lol

I want to see this tournament happen just for you to watch my prediction come true ^^

I dont understand. If you want to see this so much why haven't you done it yet?

Avatar of finnsteur

I'm not a tournament organizer. I can only make publicity for my Idea. Try to convince some influencial people.

Avatar of lfPatriotGames

The best way to convince people, influential or otherwise, is to show that it works. Results is one of the best ways to get attention. If you do it and it works, it proves you are serious. If you do it and it doesn't work, at least you learned it wasn't such a good idea. Either way win from the experience. Just telling people you have a good idea almost never works.

Avatar of finnsteur

Yes but there aren't any "Draw problem" in chess except on the top level.

If I organized a tournament online with class A or Expert players it wouldn't prove anything.

Their games already finish with a bang most of the time.

Avatar of Guest4290016777
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