The problems with the london system and caro kann + why they are so hated. - Chess Forums - Page 3

ChessMasteryOfficial

Mar 7, 2024

0

#41

There's room for a variety of approaches in chess, and the best opening is the one that suits your taste and helps you enjoy the game.

Alchessblitz

Mar 7, 2024

0

#42

Imo

a :

1 : There are refuted openings like Marshall Defense (with the confusion of two gambit variations which would not be refuted) or Latvian Gambit and there are trash openings like Damiano Defence.

These are really bad openings for players who actually want to improve their chess.

2 : London system and Caro Kann are openings that are played by GMs.

So these can't really be bad openings and it doesn't make much sense to think one dude who want to improve his chess can't do it with these openings.

b : If we are newbie (not in the meaning I am not gosu so I am a noob and a noob is a newbie so I am newbie because I am not gosu) Caro Kann, French, Pirc, Alekhine, Scandinavian even Sicilian in theory are not recommended because they don't sufficiently respect the basic principles of openings but normally we are not forever newbies so the idea that an opening is bad because of its low level only makes sense when we are newbies after that it becomes more subjective to say that an opening is bad and the opening doesn't matter as much (tactics, endgames, strategies can be much more important)

c : Opening can have a great psychological impact therefore it's up to us to choose an opening (among the valid ones) that we believe to be enough good (because when we win it's ok but when we lose if immediately afterwards we accuse the opening it's not ok).

d : Generally when we find our opening is ultimately not good we end up changing it and our old opening will have taught us.

c : The London system and the French Exchange variation there will be hatred, rage or annoyance (I mean to me it's not a rumor) but "Caro Kann is so hated", I have to have faith in dude trust me.

NM SuperAwesomeSarthak

Mar 7, 2024

0

#43

let people play what they want to play.

if u don't like these openings, fine, but you don't have to make a whole forum criticizing them. There will always be a person who will like the London or Caro.

PromisingPawns

Mar 7, 2024

0

#44

BS. As long as you prepare the openings well, it's a great choice, especially at the club level.

PromisingPawns

Mar 7, 2024

0

#45

We all know that you have been against these openings since a long time. You want agressive and fun lines but that's not the taste of all. I have seen people improve very fast playing london and caro kann. At the end of the day, let's just let people play what they want.

blackmore324

Mar 7, 2024

0

#46

I don't know what you are talking about with the Caro. The Caro Kann is only boring if white makes it boring. White has many options to make it an interesting game, the Tal variation and Fantasy variations come to mind. Recently a lot of people have also been playing the Alien Gambit, and those games are plenty exciting. Maybe you aren't as proactive as you like to think you are lol. Also Black realistically should strive to play in a defensive and solid manner since White empirically has the advantage in the opening. Shuffling your pieces is better than over committing and permanently weakening your position. It is up to White to prove their advantage.

AngryPuffer

Mar 7, 2024

0

#47

blackmore324 wrote:

I don't know what you are talking about with the Caro. The Caro Kann is only boring if white makes it boring. White has many options to make it an interesting game, the Tal variation and Fantasy variations come to mind. Recently a lot of people have also been playing the Alien Gambit, and those games are plenty exciting. Maybe you aren't as proactive as you like to think you are lol. Also Black realistically should strive to play in a defensive and solid manner since White empirically has the advantage in the opening. Shuffling your pieces is better than over committing and permanently weakening your position. It is up to White to prove their advantage.

3.Nc3- Black plays 4.Nf6 and the games here arent of any intrest

3.e5 Black plays Bf5-e6-Nd7-Ne7-h6 etc.. (the tal/Nc3/g4 variation does exist, its just much more riskier for white)

3.exd5 4.c4 - blacks literal goal here is to trade everything

3.f3- black often plays e6 and trys to keep everything closed

Its blacks choice if he wants to play it more sharp or more slow.

AngryPuffer

Mar 7, 2024

0

#48

Alchessblitz wrote:

Imo

a :

1 : There are refuted openings like Marshall Defense (with the confusion of two gambit variations which would not be refuted) or Latvian Gambit and there are trash openings like Damiano Defence.

These are really bad openings for players who actually want to improve their chess.

2 : London system and Caro Kann are openings that are played by GMs.

GMs already completely understand chess principles, tactics, ideas, and how to play the game. a 1000 likely doesnt.

So these can't really be bad openings and it doesn't make much sense to think one dude who want to improve his chess can't do it with these openings.

because the positions are so bland and repetative. white will never learn other pawn structures, (some) common tactics, and how to develop towards gaining control of the center

b : If we are newbie (not in the meaning I am not gosu so I am a noob and a noob is a newbie so I am newbie because I am not gosu) Caro Kann, French, Pirc, Alekhine, Scandinavian even Sicilian in theory are not recommended because they don't sufficiently respect the basic principles of openings but normally we are not forever newbies so the idea that an opening is bad because of its low level only makes sense when we are newbies after that it becomes more subjective to say that an opening is bad and the opening doesn't matter as much (tactics, endgames, strategies can be much more important)

Thats true, so a beginner should be playing e5 and developing both his knights and bishops, or respond with d5 agianst d4 and develop his knight behind his c pawn and his other normally. This will help him learn how to develop to the center and support him being able to fight for it.

c : Opening can have a great psychological impact therefore it's up to us to choose an opening (among the valid ones) that we believe to be enough good (because when we win it's ok but when we lose if immediately afterwards we accuse the opening it's not ok).

d : Generally when we find our opening is ultimately not good we end up changing it and our old opening will have taught us.

c : The London system and the French Exchange variation there will be hatred, rage or annoyance (I mean to me it's not a rumor) but "Caro Kann is so hated", I have to have faith in dude trust me.

its 2 am where i live, but some of this i couldnt fully understand. (i could just be tired, but it could be you also.)

AngryPuffer

Mar 8, 2024

0

#49

i would recommend people to read this

https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/wx8ye2/the_london_system_is_a_perfectly_good_opening/

Art-of-War-TX

Mar 8, 2024

0

#50

I wasn't a Caro or London player until I read this post, now I'll be playing both of them.

xDamkiller

Mar 8, 2024

0

#51

I'm sorry but where is the problem?

blackmore324

Mar 8, 2024

0

#52

AngryPuffer wrote:

3.Nc3- Black plays 4.Nf6 and the games here arent of any intrest
What are you talking about? Look at that position with an engine, just keep advancing your pawn and white has a much better position. I have never played 4.Nf6 with the Caro, seems like an easy to lose castling rights and get stuck for the rest of the game.

3.e5 Black plays Bf5-e6-Nd7-Ne7-h6 etc.. (the tal/Nc3/g4 variation does exist, its just much more riskier for white)
??? So you understand that in order to play with an open and dynamic position, you have to be willing to take risks. It sounds like you want your cake and eat it too. You want to play openings with no risks and then complain when your positions end up closed and enter an end game. If you want your games to be interesting, you have to make them interesting.

3.exd5 4.c4 - blacks literal goal here is to trade everything
White initiates the exchange Caro, if you don't want to play the exchange Caro then don't initiate it. Again its white choice.

3.f3- black often plays e6 and trys to keep everything closed

But white shuts down the black's light square bishop. You have effectively nullified the point of the Caro gives you if e6 is played. Games in this line typically result in opposite side castling, which is very dynamic. Also plenty of people do exchange the pawn early in the Fantasy, like me.
I don't understand your complaints. There are so many different ways to play against the Caro. If you chose boring ways, thats your fault.

AngryPuffer

Mar 8, 2024

0

#53

blackmore324 wrote:

AngryPuffer wrote:

3.Nc3- Black plays 4.Nf6 and the games here arent of any intrest
What are you talking about? Look at that position with an engine, just keep advancing your pawn and white has a much better position. I have never played 4.Nf6 with the Caro, seems like an easy to lose castling rights and get stuck for the rest of the game.

3.e5 Black plays Bf5-e6-Nd7-Ne7-h6 etc.. (the tal/Nc3/g4 variation does exist, its just much more riskier for white)
??? So you understand that in order to play with an open and dynamic position, you have to be willing to take risks. It sounds like you want your cake and eat it too. You want to play openings with no risks and then complain when your positions end up closed and enter an end game. If you want your games to be interesting, you have to make them interesting.

so are you saying that black just doesnt want an interesting game and i have to do everything in my power to try to make one?

3.exd5 4.c4 - blacks literal goal here is to trade everything
White initiates the exchange Caro, if you don't want to play the exchange Caro then don't initiate it. Again its white choice.

the panov attack is very different from the exchange caro kann.

3.f3- black often plays e6 and trys to keep everything closed

But white shuts down the black's light square bishop. You have effectively nullified the point of the Caro gives you if e6 is played. Games in this line typically result in opposite side castling, which is very dynamic. Also plenty of people do exchange the pawn early in the Fantasy, like me.

the b6-ba6 strategy is even stronger here than in the french. blacks light squared bishop isnt an issue here.

I don't understand your complaints. There are so many different ways to play against the Caro. If you chose boring ways, thats your fault.

you dont understand my complaints because you dont understand your openings. Go learn them.

blackmore324

Mar 8, 2024

0

#54

AngryPuffer wrote:

so are you saying that black just doesnt want an interesting game and i have to do everything in my power to try to make one?

YES!!! That is how chess is played. White has the advantage in the opening, if white wants something to happen in the game they have to make it happen. It is really that simple.
Also what does that png you posted have to do with 3.Nc3- Black plays 4.Nf6? The Panov is not different from the exchange, the move 3.exd5 is known as the exchange caro because you are literally exchanging the pawns instead of advancing the pawn 3.e5. The panov is a line which white initiates that can occur after you enter the exchange Caro:

1. e4c62. d4d53. exd5cxd54. c4

transylvian

Mar 8, 2024

0

#55

A lot of excitement... The original idea in the Panov was c4-c5, QS Pawn Majority, sometimes met by timely e6-e5 and systematic unpicking. An early ...Nc6 is tactical, Botvinnik demolished Spielmann in, I believe, 11 moves. The exchange Caro, c2-c3 allows Black a minority attack and was (re)introduced by Fischer (who is said to have problems with the CK and played the Nc3/Nf3 line to avoid the (then) critical ...Bf5 line. There is also ...g6 vs the Panov when c4*d5 can result in minor piece "dances" to recapture the d5P. Then there's d5*c4 met by d5 vs a c6N. Now that's a rich complex, even ignoring IQPs! And that's only one set of CK possibilities...

I'm sure the London HAS sophistication. It's just that it commits white to a particular structure WITHOUT seeing what black does "wrong". Every commitment takes away alternative possibilities. 1 f4 is fine BUT white has already SAID what he proposes to DO. 1 d4, 2c4 reserves options UNTIL you see what Blacks going to play - dark squares eg KID, centre play, pressure aginst e4...

transylvian

Mar 8, 2024

0

#56

Once you know what blacks up yo THEN you pin/defend/fianchetto/unpin - a Bishop's life is a busy one!

MaetsNori

Mar 8, 2024

0

#57

transylvian wrote:

...Every commitment takes away alternative possibilities. ...1 d4, 2c4 reserves options UNTIL you see what Blacks going to play - ...

True, but 1.d4 and 2.c4 are both committal moves, as well - White has committed both his d and c pawns early on in the game ... And as we know, pawns can't move backward.

Sometimes the d-pawn is better placed on d3 to support a fight for the light squares.

Sometimes the c4 square is better off left empty, so that a knight or bishop can utilize that square ... or so that a pawn can arrive on that square at a later, more impactful moment.

Every move can be questioned in favor of another possible move ... such is the fascinating nature of chess.

AngryPuffer

Mar 10, 2024

0

#58

blackmore324 wrote:

AngryPuffer wrote:

so are you saying that black just doesnt want an interesting game and i have to do everything in my power to try to make one?

YES!!! That is how chess is played. White has the advantage in the opening, if white wants something to happen in the game they have to make it happen. It is really that simple.

some people want to enjoy chess and arent trying to draw each game as black. the people that are doing that are either a lower rated black player agianst a higher rated white player or someone like you.

Also what does that png you posted have to do with 3.Nc3- Black plays 4.Nf6?

3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Nf6

The Panov is not different from the exchange, the move 3.exd5 is known as the exchange caro because you are literally exchanging the pawns

the exchange caro kann plays and sets up differently from the panov. Thats why they are 2 different things.

instead of advancing the pawn 3.e5. The panov is a line which white initiates that can occur after you enter the exchange Caro:

its not. you can go into it from many different openings. The most common way of going into it is from the caro kann move order.

1. e4c62. d4d53. exd5cxd54. c4

Lyudmil_Tsvetkov

Mar 10, 2024

0

#59

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blackmore324

Mar 10, 2024

0

#60

AngryPuffer wrote:

3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Nf6

If you don't want to play the Tartakower play the alien gambit, I said this in my original post. In order to play the panov per your move order you have to play 3. exd5, which is an exchange of center pawns, so I don't know why you are mentioning other Panov lines. The exchange of the center pawns is more passive then advancing which is the more confrontational line. That is what I am trying to say, I don't know what else to tell you. If you don't want to play passive don't exchange the center pawns.