the Sicilian. why does no-one on this site play the main line as white?

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fieldsofforce

 

The_Chin_Of_Quinn wrote:

Well, sort of. The 2 center pawns are annoying mostly because there are so many options. e7, e6, e5, d6, d5 in one order or another. White has space and development. Normally black would be unquestionably worse, but by staying on the 3rd rank and having no major weaknesses black eventually catches up.

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The 2 center pawns are annoying mostly because there are so many options. e7, e6, e5, d6, d5 in one order or another.

The pawns at d6,e6, and f7 are a bulwark of defense against the  savage onslaughts of  the White army.  But more important is the hypermodern control of the center with a small but secure center.  Black does have to be vigilant of tactical shots at e6 and f5. 

White has space and development

Black has the  advantage of restraining White's space advantage with the  hypermodern center.  It provides White with no targets and yet there is the force of  Black's pawns and pieces exerting influence on the central squares d5, e5, e4 with a restraining force against White's space advantage. It is an invisible restraining shield that  holds back White's space advantage without providing White with handles to  remove  it. 

White's advantage in development is countered by Black being able to target White's pawns and pieces.  The targets in the center are the White  N at d4 and the White pawn at e4. 

 Normally black would be unquestionably worse, but by staying on the 3rd rank and having no major weaknesses black eventually catches up.

No, Black must always be striving for the thematic break move ...d5, otherwise White's continuous  pressure will crush Black's position.

Oraoradeki

I understand your frustration that almost no one plays mainline openings on this site, but really the best antidote to it is to smash it up. The more you smash it the less your opponents will play crap against you. It is important on your part to calm down, and not hastily try punish your opponents for the positionally bad move. Just keep moving your pieces to their optimal squares and at some point your opponent will suffer for placing pieces on awkward squares. 

 

That being said, 2.d3 after the Sicilian isn't that bad, the idea is to transpose into Closed Sicilian but confuse you in the process (with the weird move order). 

 

An odd Sicilian imo is something like this- 1.e4 c5 2.Bc4 e6 3.a4

MickinMD

I think there are two reasons you're not seeing White play an early d4 vs the Sicilian:

1. there are a lot variations the go through the d4 cxd4, Nxd4 moves and avoiding them avoids having to memorize them.

2. There's been a movement lately asking, "Doesn't it seem idiotic to willingly give up your d-Pawn for a c-Pawn where it also opens up the c-file for the Q-side attack Black will likely try for?" and looking for alternatives like the 2 c3 (Alapin) Sicilian and 2 Nc3, 3 g6, 4 Bg7 Closed Sicilian.

fieldsofforce
MickinMD wrote:

I think there are two reasons you're not seeing White play an early d4 vs the Sicilian:

1. there are a lot variations the go through the d4 cxd4, Nxd4 moves and avoiding them avoids having to memorize them.

2. There's been a movement lately asking, "Doesn't it seem idiotic to willingly give up your d-Pawn for a c-Pawn where it also opens up the c-file for the Q-side attack Black will likely try for?" and looking for alternatives like the 2 c3 (Alapin) Sicilian and 2 Nc3, 3 g6, 4 Bg7 Closed Sicilian.

In the Sicilian Black is challenging White for the initiative from move one in asymmetric pawn formation.  No other opening for Black provides him with all of these plusses.  And to boot  the  nail  in the coffin for White the 2 vs. 1 pawn majority in the center which is the answer  to why White avoids what MickinMD numbered reasons 1 and 2.

What an advantage for Black.  White is playing theoretically  inferior moves  as early  as move 2 or 3. 

Follow Oraoradeki's  advice it is sound.

 

The_Chin_Of_Quinn

The biggest challenge of a bad opening is usually to take it seriously and not fall asleep.

Here's a game where I was lost right out of the opening in the very line I criticized a few posts ago.

(Luckily he got low on time and started giving me all his pieces, but I was happy with my 25th move at least.)

 

The_Chin_Of_Quinn
fieldsofforce wrote:

 

 Normally black would be unquestionably worse, but by staying on the 3rd rank and having no major weaknesses black eventually catches up.

No, Black must always be striving for the thematic break move ...d5, otherwise White's continuous  pressure will crush Black's position.

Playing d5 before black catches up is suicide. Again, normally black would just be worse, but white can't make use of the space and development like in other openings, so black has time.

Gs90

Improve your rating and everyone would play mainline

WalangAlam

I think your opponents are avoiding the open sicilian. However I agree with some comments, as you go higher in rating you would meet a lot of open sicilian players.

fieldsofforce
The_Chin_Of_Quinn wrote:
fieldsofforce wrote:

 

 Normally black would be unquestionably worse, but by staying on the 3rd rank and having no major weaknesses black eventually catches up.

No, Black must always be striving for the thematic break move ...d5, otherwise White's continuous  pressure will crush Black's position.

Playing d5 before black catches up is suicide. Again, normally black would just be worse, but white can't make use of the space and development like in other openings, so black has time.

 

Playing d5 before black catches up is suicideNaturally a premature ...d5 break is suicide.  However, there are times when White plays  tough  and  it is necessary  for Black to allow exchanges on  d5 so long as a White pawn lands on d5 at the end of the exchanges.  That result does not allow White to use the d5 square to advantage.

 

Again, normally black would just be worse, but white can't make use of the space and development like in other openings, so black has time. 

No, I will give you a specific example.  After the moves 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Be3 (the English Attack) Black now continues with 6...e6.  That innocent looking move is an earthquake to White's attacking plans.  The move 6...e6 reduces White's middlegame plans of attack by almost half.  That is what buys Black time against White's space and development advantage.  Without 6...e6 White can bring the full force of his space and development advantage down on Black's position.  I won't go into detailed analysis as this topic  does not call for that.  I will only mention the dangerous tactical possibilities at the squares e6 and f5.

 

 

baptistpreach
You don't see them because you're too low rated to come across book players. What that should tell you is that even though you know main lines, you're losing to enough players who don't even know any opening theory, so you should focus studies other than the opening.
gingerninja2003

a lot of people are saying people are avoiding the open Sicilian however i personally don't mind playing against the open Sicilian i quite enjoy it.

why do people hate playing against the open Sicilian?  

corum

I have faced 1. e4 c5 in 493 games as white. In 489 of them I played. 2. Nf3. Of these 489 games I have 50% wins and 36% defeats. I really enjoy it when I play 1. e4 and my opponent plays c5. 

The two most common replies by black after 1. e4 c5 2 Nf3 are d6 and Nc6. d6 is the most common in my games and my win/loss ratio drops to 46%/38%. So it is not true that people on this site don't play this line as white. I don't play blitz though - I play daily chess.

The_Chin_Of_Quinn
gingerninja2003 wrote:

a lot of people are saying people are avoiding the open Sicilian however i personally don't mind playing against the open Sicilian i quite enjoy it.

why do people hate playing against the open Sicilian?  

I don't like it from either side. I guess as black it's ok, but as white I feel like black's play is easier. Basically it means I don't understand the position.

gingerninja2003
corum wrote:

I have faced 1. e4 c5 in 493 games as white. In 489 of them I played. 2. Nf3. Of these 489 games I have 50% wins and 36% defeats. I really enjoy it when I play 1. e4 and my opponent plays c5. 

The two most common replies by black after 1. e4 c5 2 Nf3 are d6 and Nc6. d6 is the most common in my games and my win/loss ratio drops to 46%/38%. So it is not true that people on this site don't play this line as white. I don't play blitz though - I play daily chess.

my rating is different to yours so that may change how people play.

corum

But I would say it is ridiculous to complain that your opponents don't play the moves that you suggest. If they do not know the Sicilian and play sub-optimal moves, if you **really understood** the opening - rather than just memorising lines - you would presumably win quite easily. My advice would be instead of trying to play an opening that you might not understand, go back to playing natural opening moves.  

gingerninja2003
corum wrote:

But I would say it is ridiculous to complain that your opponents don't play the moves that you suggest. If they do not know the Sicilian and play sub-optimal moves, if you **really understood** the opening - rather than just memorising lines - you would presumably win quite easily. My advice would be instead of trying to play an opening that you might not understand, go back to playing natural opening moves.  

i don't mind people playing bad moves. i just don't know why they haven't revised the Sicilian. 

PawnosaurusRex
gingerninja2003 wrote:

as black when i see e4 i play the Sicilian. but no-one on the planet plays normally against it. they don't play different variations like the 3. Bb5+ line which i don't mind playing against. it's when people do things like. 2.d3. why? no reason i never see this variation when i revise the Sicilian. there are some other odd ones I've had to play against but not once (unless I've forgotten a game) have i seen the main line which is.

instead of what should be played i get something like this.

is it because people have no idea what the Sicilian is so they just act spontaneously. surely they must know it because it's the most popular defence played among masters and most chess players would watch master games so wouldn't they know the main lines?

so my question is: why do people play odd things against the Sicilian when the main line is solid?  

 

That's all I play as white. It's about all I can remember. Then I crash all my pieces into black and simplify as quickly as possible.