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# Threefold Repetition

• #1

Dear all

I am a new member, just joined 3 days ago and I found it really exciting here..:) Wish we can share so much about chess, because I am just a casual player and I just play chess naturally (not literally), I do not know much about opening and other theories. Therefore, hope you all can help me learning so much about chess..

First question from me is about threefold repetition.

Why "Threefold repetition" did not work here? I played chess online against Shando1989 (you can see on my online chess), and have already done it with Kb7 three times, but it did not "draw automatically" and when I offered to my opponent, he refused, even though I have already mentioned the threefold repetition. How could this happened?

greatexcalibur

• #2
Three-fold repetition is NOT when YOU make 3 times the same moves. It's when a position is repeated 3 times and that means that both players made the same moves.
• #3

Thanks Kosmeg, yup, sorry I meant positions, NOT moves.. :)

How about this article on the game between Fischer versus Petrosian 1971, they didn't repeat the same moves, each moved differently, but at the end Fischer can claim draw due to he repeated his Queen position at e2 three times.

• #4

It's a common mistake to believe that both players have to make same moves three times in a row for this rule to make effect, actually only the position counts and it doesn't have to occur as a result of repetition of same moves from both sides, as the Fischer versus Petrosian shows.

The position in a game is a term that describes where all the pieces of both players lay, what are the possible moves that the player can play(ability to castle, play en passant etc.) and whos turn it is to move.

If all of those conditions of two positions are the same, then the position is the same.

• #5

Thanks BFM, then can you please explain in my game with Shando1989, which rule(s) was / were not established? (according to my last reply in our group forum, explaining Petrosian's move that only occured twice by his Rook on d5).

Thanks a million.. :)

• #6

let me try to clarify this to you here as well (as my english isn't perfect, the more the better:)) - Petrosians rook move occured twice but the position where this rook was situated at square d5 (and his queen at f6 and fischers rook at f4 etc.) occured three times in the game, and that is what matters.

There never occured a position in your game, when both your and Shando1989's pieces would have been situated at same squares three times.

• #7

Now I understand.

In my game, it wasn't established because Shando's King made different move, even though my King was in the same position for 3 times.

Thanks a million BFM for your clear and good explanation as well as your perfect English, instead mine that very worst.. :)

And thanks also for PerfectGent

• #8
PerfectGent wrote:

and a final point.

3 fold repetition is not an automatic draw.

you have to claim it because if you choose you can let play go on.

And what if you claim the draw and your opponent doesn't accept it?

• #9
FreeCat wrote: PerfectGent wrote:

and a final point.

3 fold repetition is not an automatic draw.

you have to claim it because if you choose you can let play go on.

And what if you claim the draw and your opponent doesn't accept it?

If valid threefold repetition has been established, your opponent cannot refuse the offer, and the game ended with draw.

• #10

here's how it works, greatexcalibur:

when the server detects that the same position has occured three times, the "offer draw" button becomes a "claim draw" button. if you click that, the game automatically becomes a draw and your opponent cannot refuse. hope this helps.

• #11
Or in a live OTB tournament (not on computer), if an opponent does not acknowlege your draw claim by threefold repetition, you would just have to summon the Tournament Director to make an official draw claim, who would verify that the position did occur three times in the manner specified by the rule, and he would then rule it a draw.
• #12

Does the claim draw button only appear immediately after the three-fold repetition? Can you continue the game, for example, then blunder badly later on and still claim the draw?

• #13

Torsten, to be honest, I haven't tried in here.. But, I think the draw will only offered and can be claimed once. If you didn't take it, then you continue the game as usual and cannot claim after several moves unles the threefold repetition comes again and you will be offered again..

• #14

Ive been struggling with the same confusian over the Petrosian fischer game and one of my own, noww Im beginning to understand1 thankyou guys

• #15

As for the timing, in the wikipedia article on threefold repetition, it says:

is about to appear, if he first writes his move on his scoresheet and declares to the arbiter his intention to make this move, or

b. has just appeared, and the player claiming the draw has the move.

It seems to me that means it must be claimed right away after the 3rd repetition.

• #16
SimonMcNamaraMTL wrote:

As for the timing, in the wikipedia article on threefold repetition, it says:

is about to appear, if he first writes his move on his scoresheet and declares to the arbiter his intention to make this move, or

b. has just appeared, and the player claiming the draw has the move.

It seems to me that means it must be claimed right away after the 3rd repetition.

Except, on this site it works slightly differntly, for practical reasons, I suppose.

The player to move has no way to declare his intentention to repeat on this site, so he can only claim after he has ac tually made the move.

It's a small but annoying bug, if you opponent is fast enough with his next move, or has made a conditional move, you dont get the chance to claim.

• #17

Good call, I noticed this too as I was writing. I just played a game where I claimed it after the 3rd rep but it was my opponent's move. I was losing so I'm not gonna complain lol.

But you're right, it's the only way to give players option "a" from above is to allow them to claim after. It does have the quick move downfall though which is pretty unfair.

• #18
SimonMcNamaraMTL wrote:

Good call, I noticed this too as I was writing. I just played a game where I claimed it after the 3rd rep but it was my opponent's move. I was losing so I'm not gonna complain lol.

But you're right, it's the only way to give players option "a" from above is to allow them to claim after. It does have the quick move downfall though which is pretty unfair.

The problem is it is a situation where you would call the arbiter, and it is impossible to have arbiters available for all these games around the clock, so you make the move and then claim.

The opponent moving instantly is a defect (not a bug, which is unintentional) which is the lesser of evils, since if he repeats again you can still claim.

• #19

It's really neat to see the OP was excited about learning chess 5 years ago and his last log in time was 11 hours ago and he has a 1700 online rating.

• #20

Thanks for the great string on this.  Was just in a threefold repition situation (wasn't losing, but my next best alternative would have made losing a foregone conclusion).  Forwarded this string to my opponent when he/she wouldn't accept the draw and brought things to a quick conclusion.

Would have preferred to win, but cool to see that the rule exists to end perpetual repeated positions.

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