Touch move rule should be abolished

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blueemu
Estragon wrote:

A terrible ruling.  Even if the player knocked over his own King by accident, there is no requirement to say "j'adoube" at all.  The rule on "touch move" is if you touch a piece with the intent to move it, you must move that piece.  Accidental touches do not invoke the rule.

And in the case of a spectator knocking over a piece, this is ridiculous.  The arbiter was an idiot, and I would happily have told him so to his face.

In fact, the "intent" clause has been removed from the rules, since it is nearly impossible to prove intent.

However... the newer version of the rules specifically refers to "touching a piece on the chess-board".

From FIDE's own web-site:

Article 4: The act of moving the pieces

4.1

Each move must be made with one hand only.

4.2

Provided that he first expresses his intention (for example by saying „j’adoube“ or “I adjust”), the player having the move may adjust one or more pieces on their squares.

4.3

Except as providedin Article 4.2, if the player having the move deliberately touches on the chessboard:

 

a.

one or more of his own pieces, he must move the first piece touched which can be moved

 

b.

one or more of his opponent’s pieces, he must capture the first piece touched which can be captured

 

c.

one piece of each colour, he must capture the opponent’s piece with his piece or, if this is illegal, move or capture the first piece touched which can be moved or captured. If it is unclear, whether the player’s own piece or his opponent’s was touched first, the player’s own piece shall be considered to have been touched before his opponent’s.

SmyslovFan

Capablanca described what he considered "the main rules of chess"

"1. Any piece that is touched must be moved....

2.Moves must not be taken back. If a gross mistake is made and the game is lost thereby, there is only one thing to do--resign gracefully and begin a new game.

3. Do not hover over the pieces too much. It is unethical and leads to errors. ... It is not bad to move quickly, but it is bad to move hastily."

This was in his book devoted to beginners of the game, A Primer of Chess.

Some people don't like the use of words such as "ethics" when applied to chess. But these are precisely the words used by Capablanca and other greats of the game.

Ubik42

My 60 memorable games relates a story of Fischer idly touching a pawn during the game, then having to move it. 

I am not sure if an arbiter forced it or just Fischer's sense of honor.

SmyslovFan
blueemu wrote:

 

In fact, the "intent" clause has been removed from the rules, since it is nearly impossible to prove intent.

However... the newer version of the rules specifically refers to "touching a piece on the chess-board".

From FIDE's own web-site:

...4.2

Provided that he first expresses his intention (for example by saying „j’adoube“ or “I adjust”), the player having the move may adjust one or more pieces on their squares.

4.3

Except as providedin Article 4.2, if the player having the move deliberately touches on the chessboard:

 

a.

one or more of his own pieces, he must move the first piece touched which can be moved

 

...

 

...

Clearly, intent is still in the written rules.

PIRATCH
Ubik42 wrote:

My 60 memorable games relates a story of Fischer idly touching a pawn during the game, then having to move it. 

I am not sure if an arbiter forced it or just Fischer's sense of honor.

In "My 60 Memorable Games" there is an other story - I guess it was in the Petrosian game (titled: "Bear Hug") where Fischer proposed the draw not being aware it was bad behavior because it was Petrosian to offer the draw because he had the advantage! Surprised (I was really impressed by the comments on this game!)

blueemu
Ubik42 wrote:

My 60 memorable games relates a story of Fischer idly touching a pawn during the game, then having to move it. 

I am not sure if an arbiter forced it or just Fischer's sense of honor.

Walther vs Fischer, Sicilian Najdorf. Fischer (after castling King's-side) touched the h-Pawn on purpose, intending to move it to h6... then realized that his g-Pawn was pinned against the King and that White would simply take off the Pawn on h6 for free. So he had to move it to h5 instead.

PIRATCH
blueemu wrote:
Walther vs Fischer, Sicilian Najdorf. Fischer (after castling King's-side) touched the h-Pawn on purpose, intending to move it to h6... then realized that his g-Pawn was pinned against the King and that White would simply take off the Pawn on h6 for free. So he had to move it to h5 instead.

I only remembered the fact that Fischer was ready to resign had Walther played the "right" move. Walther didn't and Fischer saved a lucky draw! Cool

Ubik42

I am going to have to look, it may have been another game, but I am pretty sure there was one where the contact was completely idle and unintentional.

blueemu
HotFlow wrote:

And why on earth do you have to sit behind your pieces, I've often considered sitting at the side of the board to gain a better overview of the battle.

If I were grossly over-weight, then sitting on top of my opponent might gain me an advantage.

falcogrine

maybe sitting in front of my opponent would keep him from seeing the pieces

shepi13
EricFleet wrote:
debakker12 wrote:
Randomemory wrote:

I won a key game in high school where i was down a clean pawn in a rook endgame after i blundered badly. I called touch move, and he was forced to take another pawn, but i back ranked mated him. We won the team match, i feel no regrets winning because the team needed the win. The OP has issues if they have problems of winning unorthodoxly. winning on time, when down lots of material applies to this too.

I have problems with the touch move rule because I have had too many instances where right after I moved, I realized that the move I made was a complete blunder. Being down lots of material does not apply because you won the game because you outplayed your opponent. Winning by touch move means that you probably did not outplay your opponenet and you won by luck. The same goes for losing by touch move. I think that the game would be much more fun to play if the touch move rule did not exist.

Funny how thousands of OTB players don't have a problem with touch move and haven't lost a game because of it.

 

The downside I see to eliminating touch move is having the annoying dude who holds his piece for like 5 minutes

I've done that before, I knew which piece I was going to move so I picked it up and held it while I thought. My opponent grew frusterated and told me to put it back down. I hadn't even realized I was bothering him.

Markle
BorgQueen wrote:

I actually agree on this one... once you hit your clock that is when I think the move should be committed.  

I can't say how many times I have let my opponent go without enforcing touch move.

I have also seen many others enforce the rule and win with it.  I think it is a cheap way to win.

Once and once only I have seen a player enforce the touch move rule, forcing his opponent to play the CORRECT piece instead of the one he wanted to play, which lost immediately.  It was really funny actually, the player who was forced to move the right piece was so upset about having the move forced on him, he blundered anyway and still lost even though there was a simple win almost being forced on him.  Guess you had to be there ^_^

One of my sparring partners at my club often picks up a piece, places it on a square... lets go, then sees the problem, puts his hand back on the piece, brings it back to the starting square and says "Ja Doube"... we both have a laugh and play on.  I almost NEVER enforce touch-move.

You say the move should not be final until you punch your clock but then you say you almost NEVER enforce the touch move rule You can't have it both ways either you play by the touch move rules every game or not. It is not fair to your opponents to let some people touch a piece and not move it and enforce the touch move on someone else just because you happen to feel like it in that game.

Ubik42

When I move my knight, I make the 6 million dollar man "dit dit dit dit" noise. No one has complained at any tournaments yet.

blueemu

During a tournament game in the maritimes, one of my opponents had Bishops on neighbouring diagonals (on b7 and b6), one of them protecting a Knight. I captured the Knight, and he picked up the wrong Bishop to recapture... then hesitated, with a stricken look on his face.

I told him to touch the other Bishop, too... then it would be my call which piece he would be forced to move. He touched the second Bishop, and I told him to move the one that would recapture the piece.

I lost that game. Frown

913Glorax12

I like touch move, to me it adds the best part of chess, patience, and  one of my sayings goes with this, patience goes the wheasel. And I don't feel bad at all, when I remind them, since they got to anxious and they have suffer for it. In my opinion, chess is a game of patience, and touch move goes by it.

blueemu

It's worth pointing out that even in a FIDE-rated tournament, you are not required to call a touch-move infraction on your opponent:

4.7

A player forfeits his right to a claim against his opponent’s violation of Article 4 once he deliberately touches a piece.

shepi13
blueemu wrote:

During a tournament game in the maritimes, one of my opponents had Bishops on neighbouring diagonals (on b7 and b6), one of them protecting a Knight. I captured the Knight, and he picked up the wrong Bishop to recapture... then hesitated, with a stricken look on his face.

I told him to touch the other Bishop, too... then it would be my call which piece he would be forced to move. He touched the second Bishop, and I told him to move the one that would recapture the piece.

I lost that game.

That's why you always touch the piece you are intending to capture first.

Pleasure_Paradigm

I only play touch move, with a clock, and of course, write down the moves! Every Single Game. I only play 30+ mins TCs.

pt22064

You stated that you "almost never" enforce touch move, which implies that you sometimes enforce the rule. Maybe you misspoke and meant to say that you "never" enforce touch move.

BorgQueen wrote:

Markle wrote:

BorgQueen wrote:

I actually agree on this one... once you hit your clock that is when I think the move should be committed.  

I can't say how many times I have let my opponent go without enforcing touch move.

I have also seen many others enforce the rule and win with it.  I think it is a cheap way to win.

Once and once only I have seen a player enforce the touch move rule, forcing his opponent to play the CORRECT piece instead of the one he wanted to play, which lost immediately.  It was really funny actually, the player who was forced to move the right piece was so upset about having the move forced on him, he blundered anyway and still lost even though there was a simple win almost being forced on him.  Guess you had to be there ^_^

One of my sparring partners at my club often picks up a piece, places it on a square... lets go, then sees the problem, puts his hand back on the piece, brings it back to the starting square and says "Ja Doube"... we both have a laugh and play on.  I almost NEVER enforce touch-move.

You say the move should not be final until you punch your clock but then you say you almost NEVER enforce the touch move rule You can't have it both ways either you play by the touch move rules every game or not. It is not fair to your opponents to let some people touch a piece and not move it and enforce the touch move on someone else just because you happen to feel like it in that game.

ROFL!!!  Perhaps you should think before you post? ;-)

Please tell me exactly where, in my post I said I ever enforced touch move??!    

Space-race

plus if you play against anybody the can exploit not having the rule since they can just switch peices