Even Alpha zero has lost to a weaker opponent (stockfish) which is going to play worse moves but so I guess that chess is a game where there is no way to always win or draw except in some lines of certain openings where there are forced draws. Even black can win at computer level, 1 game in LCZero vs Stockfish stockfish won as black. Additionally even when stockfish played the kings gambit it beat LCZero but that may be because stockfish new is so strong.
True or False Chess is a Draw with Best Play from Both Sides
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There are also openings like the Berlin wall that are not a forced win but are a draw because it is just to dry for either side to win and there is no play
I think it's a draw because if there is a forced win it must be REALLY long for computer not to see it, and the 50 move rule will draw.
Oct 14, 2021
0
#8225
If both sides play perfect moves then it's either a draw or white wins. White has the advantage of going first. Also what is considered a perfect game? There could be many exceptional moves and one might just be more comfortable for the player.
I already proved white use in zugzwang in the first move. After he disturbs his position with any move, his game is lost (assuming perfect play)
potatotomato123456 wrote:
I think it's a draw because if there is a forced win it must be REALLY long for computer not to see it, and the 50 move rule will draw.
Yes. With the 50 move rule chess is probably a draw. But without that rule, it's a forced win. As computers find longer and longer forced win endgames (now over 500 moves) it's only a matter of time before one of these endgames is found to be forced from the opening position.
It could very well end up being 10,000 moves or more so it will never make any difference for people playing the game.
A. You don’t know that a forced endgame won position can be forced from the opening.
B. Longest chess game has been calculated to be about 5,500 moves or so, not 10,000!
B. Longest chess game has been calculated to be about 5,500 moves or so, not 10,000!
Ubik42 wrote:
A. You don’t know that a forced endgame won position can be forced from the opening.
B. Longest chess game has been calculated to be about 5,500 moves or so, not 10,000!
B. Longest chess game has been calculated to be about 5,500 moves or so, not 10,000!
Yes on both counts.
Computers are still in their infancy, barely 80 years old or so. Computing power right now I would imagine is archaic compared to what it will be 100 to 200 years from now. So there is no way to currently find a forced win position from the opening. But as computers advance and get more powerful they are finding longer and longer forced win endgames. So the trend points to one of those endgames (there are probably many many trillions) having at least ONE of them forced from the opening.
I didn't know that currently the longest chess games have been calculated to 5,500 moves. I thought it would be less than that. It seems 10,000 is probably not that far off. And who knows, maybe the forced win is not 10,000 moves. It might be half a million. I think it will be a long time before we know for sure.
There is a forced win if I have 2 rooks and you have only a king, but that doesn’t mean you can force that position from the opening.
Ii is also a forced draw if we both have only kings, so maybe black has a way to force that.
It could even be, as I jokingly point out, zugzwang in the opening, so white loses by force.
We really don’t, and won’t, know for quite some time if ever.
Ii is also a forced draw if we both have only kings, so maybe black has a way to force that.
It could even be, as I jokingly point out, zugzwang in the opening, so white loses by force.
We really don’t, and won’t, know for quite some time if ever.
I read somewhere that a variant with less pieces (on a smaller board) was solved and was a forced win for black.
IT IS ZUGZWANG
i heard 36sq got solved (1 horse & 1 bishopic).
here is 16sq solved...lol !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJGP5IEUEYk
Oct 15, 2021
0
#8234
potatotomato123456 wrote:
I think it's a draw because if there is a forced win it must be REALLY long for computer not to see it, and the 50 move rule will draw.
Any Pawn move by either side resets the 50-move counter to zero.
Dear Ponz, and do Bots like these on chess.com make mistakes?
What is your opinion?
the 50-move rule is sooo anti-organic...i hate it w/ the deepest of passion !
it is that…. but without it just think of the trolling you could do in otb chess with increment. It is a necessary evil.
Oct 17, 2021
0
#8238
Ubik42 wrote:
It could be a form of zugzwang, the first pawn move gives you a defect. White to play and lose. Or maybe they just move knights until draw by repetition.
Low chance, yes!
I bet $5 chess is a draw with best play.
Low chance, yes!
I bet $5 chess is a draw with best play.
Agreed. It's unlikely, but it IS possible that having to make the first move is White's downfall. It's crazy how many people are adamant that chess 'must' be a draw with perfect play. Unfortunately (or fortunately?) we will never know.
I will wait here for the proof it is not possible.
Not likely? Sure.
Not likely? Sure.
When one plays one's best, one does one draw?
lol !!