Using Books & Databases for Playing Turn Based.

gumpty wrote: this would only work if everyone did it....it would be better for there to be symbols of some sort on everyones profile, like a book if they use books, a computer symbol if they use databases, a chessboard if the use game explorer, and maybe a huge brain if they dont use anything :-) it wouldnt be practical to search 100's of profiles loooking for somebody with the same ethics as yourself, if everyone had these sybols then they would be user searchable.

Don't forget to flag up use of these other non-physical-OTB facilities:

• using the Analysis Board
  
• pressing SUBMIT to move (not Touch Move)
  
• making notes during the game (either on paper or in the Notes tab)
  
• using the Moves tab to rewind the game
  
• using the Details tab to show captured pieces
  
• using the Details tab to flip the board
  
• showing the algebraic co-ordinates on the board
• highlighting the square of the last move made
• Conditional Moves

Much of this discussion is ignorant and absurd. What's next? An outraged discussion entitled "en passant, is it cheating?" 

Perhaps someone could post a solemn lengthy explanation of why a batter in baseball should only be allowed two strikes -- after he's had two chances well, that's enough, isn't it... why this lazy reliance on a third strike? Shameful!

read the rules read the rules read the rules

Maybe Google "Correspondence Chess" while you're at it... maybe actually learn something about the game you're playing.

Chess is a mind sport, you win the game by out-thinking the opposition, just as in running you win by running further or faster than than all others. You do not win by running then getting a taxi for a bit, then running for a bit more.

Blue cheese, I picture you standing on the sidelines of a triathalon shreiking, "OMG stop riding bicycles you're supposed to be running STOP. CHEATERS -- NON ATHELETES!"

And then there's this:

I think people who become dependent on the books and databases start on the road to becoming paper tigers. They look real good on paper but their OTB skills don't measure up.

Correspondence Chess is it's own chess league with World Champions and Grandmaster's and a separate set of ELOs... if you think CC ruins your chess I guess you could mop up patzers paper tigers like Paul Keres and Alexander Alekhine both of whom allowed their skills to be deteriorated by CC.  There have been many crossover GMs holding titles in both OTB and CC. CC GMs are generally very very knowledgeable players and are highly sought as chess trainers.

OTB chess favors players with superb memory, and fast accurate "blindfold" calculation skills.  I honestly think an arguement can be made that CC, which removes the need for memorized book theory, and which allows the player to examine a postion as deeply as he can (moving pieces on the board) without any artificial time pressure (in the old days there was no clock) is the purest, deepest form of chess.

As long as I'm at it... Let me mention that while I have NOTHING against "The Circle of Trust" playing games using any rules they all agree to, and there's certainly nothing wrong with modifying the CC rules to say no databases (hell people are free to play chess anyway they like, Fischer chess etc, or those bizarro variants they have at chessbase.com) ... I have all kinds of problems with that saccharine, self-congratulatory name, Circle of Trust. 

Pardon, but your games are no more reliant on trust than those of the rest of us. All games online are played with the honor system, because we could all be using chess engines (if you think that cheating other than the most dunderheaded blatant sort can be detected you may want to join the Circle-of-Credulity.)   We trust each other not to cheat and then we play the absolutely honorable game of modified correspondence chess, aka postal chess.  We don't need to name ourselves, "The society of non-cheaters" or other such nonsense. 

One final thought:

LEARN THE RULES OF A GAME BEFORE YOU LECTURE ON THE SUBJECT. READ THE RULES.

so this guys arguement is that CC is ok because everyone is doing it.

well at least he didnt think too hard

bluecheese wrote: so this guys arguement is that CC is ok because everyone is doing it. well at least he didnt think too hard

JG27Pyth's argument was precisely that: the "it" that we are all doing IS Correspondence Chess; but some of us haven't realised that yet.

I think it is wonderful that databases are freely available, and legal to use in turn-based chess. I've learned a LOT about openings in that manner; if all players used them then they would all learn something as well.

I don't use endgame books to help my endgames on here, because I enjoy sharpening my tactics by calculating endgame variations.

I like your idea gumpty.

And when I created this forum I did not stand to question chess.com rules but just to voice my opinion and hear others

So I never questioned RULES! (For JG27)

And just becasue something is allowed does not make it right.

*braces herself for 20 comments battling on this*

LOB wrote: ... And just becasue something is allowed does not make it right.  ... *braces herself for 20 comments battling on this*

1. using books
   
2. using databases
   
3. using game explorer
   
4. using the Analysis Board
   
5. pressing SUBMIT to move (not Touch Move)
   
6. making notes during the game (either on paper or in the Notes tab)
   
7. using the Moves tab to rewind the game
   
8. using the Details tab to show captured pieces
   
9. using the Details tab to flip the board
   
10. showing the algebraic co-ordinates on the board
    
11. highlighting the square of the last move made
    
12. Conditional Moves
    

To be honest my friend the only on that list that contrasts OTB I use is the sumbit!

Which I would be fine giving up if it were not for my rather dodgy to say the least touchpad!

There are algebraic co ordinates on OTB boards I have seen..?

And as  glancing over the details when you are too lazy ~ anyone can do this in their head OTB by couting.. seeing the piece difference does not give you an unfair advantage  - or is their another thing I don't know about in chess? Do the dead knights squeak words of help?

LOB wrote: To be honest my friend the only on that list that contrasts OTB I use is the sumbit!    Which I would be fine giving up if it were not for my rather dodgy to say the least touchpad!    There are algebraic co ordinates on OTB boards I have seen..?    And as  glancing over the details when you are too lazy ~ anyone can do this in their head OTB by couting.. seeing the piece difference does not give you an unfair advantage  - or is their another thing I don't know about in chess? Do the dead knights squeak words of help?

What I'm struggling to grasp is: what is the 'holy grail' of chess playing?

Is physical Over-The_Board play the IDEAL, in which case, any electronic form of play is an abomination. Thus, the ability to rewind the moves to help you remember what you were doing - which is not available in physical OTB chess - is an artificial assist, and should be shunned. Physical chess boards don't usually have files and ranks labelled. So this is an artificial assist that should be shunned.

Or, is electronic OTB the norm? In that case, any basic feature like indicating the last move, might be viewed simply as an inevitable consequence of representing the game in electronic form. But, in physical chess play, you get one chance to see your opponent move their piece; you are not continually reminded of it. So indicating the last move is still an artificial assist that should be shunned.

You make a personal case for keeping the SUBMIT button because your keyboard is ropey. Others might say their hands are shaky and they need the SUBMIT button too. If we are going to be consistent, we should insist: Touch Move is an essential prerequisite for playing chess.

Ultimately, we reach the nub of the discussion: on this site, OTB-style chess and correspondence-style chess look superficially so similar that many people are not aware of the EXISTENCE of two forms. When they do discover it, after the initial shock, they often argue for the creation of a 3rd form of chess - with OTB rules but with correspondence chess speed.

The 3rd form isn't available on this site.

(Comment #4 of 20)

I like Gumpty's idea too! And unlike this discussion it's new. Probably best to return to discussing it.

LOB response #2 And just because something is allowed does not make it right -- this follows Blue Cheese's : so this guys arguement is that CC is ok because everyone is doing it. well at least he didnt think too hard

Um. Excuse me? Were we discussing ethnic cleansing? As I recall we were talking about the longstanding rules of a game -- ... it's just so ridiculous, and bizarre and and... ahhhh... here... this sums up my feelings rather well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9o9Pp1EjAQ&feature=related

and remember -- Shop Smart. Shop S Mart.

I understand chess online can never be the same as OTB.

I simply wanted to understand the views of poeple and challenge them on the basis of database and book use as displyayed in the title.

But as usually happens in these discussions it has gone much past that, drifting from the essence of the question. 

But I have heard enough to see there are more database users in this thread anyway than those who oppose the idea! (I was so blind to this fact before that is what brought on the thread)

Anyway maybe we could change it to gumptys idea - what do people think of the idea of a little computer icon if you use databases during Turn based games..  or a mini book on your page!?

I think its cute.. Would almost take up using books during games to have one heh

But would people have problems with it?

LOB originally wrote : Recently it has come to my attention that it seems not at all uncommon for a turn based player to use grand master game databases or books to help them during games.

... Do you use this extra help when playing turn based?

... I know if it was against the rules people would do it anyway but still, it really takes out of what real chess is about - whats in you head and nothing else!

Lob lastly wrote: But as usually happens in these discussions it has gone much past that, drifting from the essence of the question. 

artfizz reiterates: Your view as to what constitutes real chess is at the heart of the debate.

Real chess the way it was and the way it is most mouth wateringly good is OTB, is that what you are questioning?

(Well I would think that that is not only my opinion)

What do you think?

You prefer TurnB?

I definitely prefer correspondence (or turn based if you must) chess. It suits my tastes better.

I used to play only turn based, then I joined a club..

I love the adrenaline rush

I played in a club 30 years ago. Now I can't because I teach on the same evening that all the local clubs meet. I don't feel any loss though, I have preferred correspondence for a long time.

Hmmm cool

I find correspondence nice because you can try some crazy openings and not see your mentor looking at you as if you have lost the plot.. hehe

Thats not a bad idea LOB, I would certainly have no problems with it.  But imho anyone who has been at CC chess for awhile knows that books and databases are not only commonly used but probably used by most who play this form of the game. 

One of the most appealing aspects of it is the very instructive nature of this type of play.

Its hard for me to fathom the comments that such play is not only not helpful but bad for your game.  I would ask those who have made such comments if they have ever watched masters go over their games?  If so then they must know unequivocally that "theory" is a huge part of what they are working on to help them win chess games.  Perhaps these folks would prefer to Chess960? 

Yeah, to be honest it all came as a shock to me. I did not know you were allowed extra help in turn based even with all the months I have been here.

Still I would not be comfortable using help and think I get by just as fine with after game analysing and randomised study of certain things.

I still like chess on chess.com (seeing as I am an addict) - but OTB for me any day

Maybe another forum to see peoples preference. cc or otb?