What would you play in this position?

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gamesfan

This was a position that could have happened in my game. Don't worry, the game is over, so you can share your ideas.

I wonder, what would you do if you were black in this position?

 

 

 

 

 

 

I was wondering if the best move would be Rdc3, Qe7e6, Rhd8 or something else. I would probably play Qe7e6.

dfndr5000

g4

knightrider1982

As soon as I saw this position, my first instinct was to double rooks with Rhd8. Sadly, it looks like a wasted move, although gives more support to the d3 rook.

Another is f6, strengthening the e5 pawn so it isn't a tactical liability. It looks like White should play something like Nf3, attacting the pawn. The Queen is the only defender of that pawn, so defending it again with a pawn stops any of those threats.

 

So, anyway, those would be my candidate moves if that were my game.

xman720

I think I would play Rhd8, doubling rooks. This leaves the h pawn undefended but the only way white can exploit that weakness is to maneuver his queen to h5, in which case Qe6 would defend everything nicely.

I would expect white would probably play g6 kicking my knight from his really good square that is putting pressure in h3 (though white can't really exploit this) and I would play Ng6 planning to maneuver my knight to c4 in the next 4 moves.



Diakonia

The obvious choice would seem to be 1...Rhd8.  But as lasker said: When you find a good move, wait...you might find a better move.

1...g4! 2.hg? h5 openings lines of attack.

xman720

I admit that while I saw g4, I did not realize such a boring position could be exciting so fast, and I did not see any promise! (nor the follow up h5)

Stockfish does go for the more conservative Rd8 and Qe6 at depth 27, but that's only because it knows how to defend perfectly, and the difference in evaluation between the two is within the margin of error.

Even as I look at it now I would probably change my mind to g4, good find. Luckily for me, Rd8 isn't a worse move, it's just different. You can't underestimate black's positional advantage after playing it despite how cool it may seem to sacrifice a pawn and open files.

Diakonia
xman720 wrote:

I admit that while I saw g4, I did not realize such a boring position could be exciting so fast, and I did not see any promise! (nor the follow up h5)

Stockfish does go for the more conservative Rd8 and Qe6 at depth 27, but that's only because it knows how to defend perfectly, and the difference in evaluation between the two is within the margin of error.

Even as I look at it now I would probably change my mind to g4, good find. Luckily for me, Rd8 isn't a worse move, it's just different. You can't underestimate black's positional advantage after playing it despite how cool it may seem to sacrifice a pawn and open files.

I think ...Rhd8 is a perfectly fine move, and black qould probably be fine. But what struck me with the position is the following:

Whites lack of piece protection around his king.

Blacks more active pieces. 

The advanced h-g pawns.

Knight on f4, rook on d3.

After playing ...g4, the black queen has the d8-h4 diagonal.

Blacks least active piece (Rook on h8) suddenly springs to life.

xman720

Well, a few months ago I tried very "aggressive" chess where I would slam a move like g4. I would play Bxf7 if it looked even a little bit promising, and would always try to sacrifice my pieces even if there was a line I saw where it was bad because it was hard for me to come up with other moves. Lately I have been trying to improve my chess by playing logical moves and not blundering. Lately I have not been very active, but when I was active it improved my chess quite a bit. Sometimes I even see sacrifices that actually could be good, but if i see another move that is more positional and doesn't involve sacrificing anything but takes advantage of the same things, I will play that move instead.

LogoCzar

you could win a pawn, but there is many options.

limber_up

Pure n00b's opinion: Rxc3!?

 

I think this is best because it frees up the d3 square for Black's Knight which can lead to some brutal forking combinations if White responds to Rxc3!? by seeking a Rook trade. It also leaves the d4 square under Black's control, although this is pretty insignificant considering what I believe to be the most likely responses by White. If White plays Rd-c1 it's game over after Nd3, I can't see any response for White where he doesn't suffer a significant material loss. If White responds with Nf3, unleashing a discovered attack on Black's Rook, Black can sacrifice his Knight with Nxh3+ in an attempt to expose White's King and recuperate lost material by luring White's g2 pawn away from protecting the Knight on f3. Also, Black can create a passer on the a-file in some lines. I much prefer Black's position here. Btw, first post! Yay!

Diakonia
limber_up wrote:

Pure n00b's opinion: Rxc3!?

 

I think this is best because it frees up the d3 square for Black's Knight which can lead to some brutal forking combinations if White responds to Rxc3!? by seeking a Rook trade. It also leaves the d4 square under Black's control, although this is pretty insignificant considering what I believe to be the most likely responses by White. If White plays Rd-c1 it's game over after Nd3, I can't see any response for White where he doesn't suffer a significant material loss. If White responds with Nf3, unleashing a discovered attack on Black's Rook, Black can sacrifice his Knight with Nxh3+ in an attempt to expose White's King and recuperate lost material by luring White's g2 pawn away from protecting the Knight on f3. Also, Black can create a passer on the a-file in some lines. I much prefer Black's position here. Btw, first post! Yay!

Your line works if white wants to play horribly.  But now youre playing "hope chess" and thats never good.  

limber_up

"N00b chess" would be a more accurate label, imo. I wouldn't rule out any of the moves I suggested for White at my level of play. Anyway, another move I would suggest is Qe6.

Diakonia
limber_up wrote:

"N00b chess" would be a more accurate label, imo. I wouldn't rule out any of the moves I suggested for White at my level of play. Anyway, another move I would suggest is Qe6.

Like i tell my students.  Chess is a 2 player game.  You have to take into consideration what your opponent can do, not just what you want to do.  Thats why i used the word "horribly".  Youre hoping your opponent wont see something.  Not a good way to play.

xman720

Tell me if this is right.

I am more sure about this suggested variation: Be careful about in between moves.



charousekchess84
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limber_up

@xman720 - Why not 2. Nf1 Rb3?

S3616

black has 3 rooks.  OK, he's missing a pawn, so that is possible (maybe).  But black has 3 rooks?

xman720

Thanks, I didn't see that. Well I decided to engine check and by happenstance, Nf1 is the best reply. However, the thing I am more mad I missed is that black can (and should play) 2: ...Rd3 and the rook is simply covered, no tactics required.

g4 seems like a good followup but is a little less deadly because you opened the position. Remember that in chess you want to play on the side you are strong. Well after g4 and h5 etc.) White is weak on the kingside and wants to play on the queenside.

Because of your Rxc3 business, now white can play on the queenside, he has some counterplay while you attack.

If you play g4 immediately instead of Rxc3, it is much deadlier because white has no counterplay in a closed position, all he can do is create counterplay out of thin air or wait to get checkmated.

limber_up

1... Rxc3 2. Nf3 Rb3  then get your Queen onto e6 and try and play for Nxh3+.

S3616

 NxP looks interesting.  May have to set up the position first.