What's is Magnus Carlsen's IQ?

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Avatar of V_Awful_Chess
magipi wrote:
V_Awful_Chess wrote:

Ultimately I'd expect a far closer correlation of chess players with IQ than e.g. scientists; because chess lines up much better with IQ's testing methodology, and all IQ measures is how well you score on IQ tests.

From what I've read, there's a positive correlation between chess skills and IQ, and it's very weak. Chess skills mostly depend on the time and effort you put into practicing and learning chess. IQ is a very very poor substitute.

I wasn't saying I expected being good at IQ tests makes you better at chess, but more the opposite: getting good a chess makes you better at IQ tests.

Chess itself includes some very specific skills, but the spatial reasoning tests/puzzles they do in IQ are more general so to my estimation are more likely to improve if you improve your chess ability (especially if you play a lot of varients).

I'm not familiar with the studies you're referencing, did the people do IQ tests then learn chess or the other way around?

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RikkiTikkiTavi wrote:
ciljettu wrote:

Don't get me started on lefty liberal constructs like "social", "interpersonal" or the newly fangled "emotional intelligence".

For me intelligence is raw cognitive power. Things like interpersonal intelligence involve not being an a-hole and have nothing to do with intelligence IMHO.

That is unfortunately a very common and very arbitrary take on a protean notion of intelligence. The supposed generality of human intelligence is not a law of the universe, but a convenient postulate of the talentless plethora. Most experts in fields like science in math are not trapped within the limited rules of that field (and not by chance that almost all practical contributions in science/math, come from experts within a field - not plumbers with a sense of rationalistic, intellectual grandiosity. High expertise in one (open) system, doesn't mean that one isn't free to create elementary associations with information outside of their field. If a field of study includes facts (elements) A, B, and C, there is nothing that prevents an expert from associating element B with element D (on the grounds of some subtle pattern or anomaly), from some other field. The brain does not compartmentalize information sets, it has very broad neuronal networks that constantly associate patterns. Of course, there are always those 'intellectual dicks' who are purely interested in aimless 'fact finding' within their respective fields - these are people confuse their ability to learn with intelligence, and are extremely narrow thinkers. It's very likely not just IQ, but limitations of the neural inter-complexity and computational speed (intuition) of individuals is what allows some to actually apply information they've learned in ways to solve problems and exhibit higher learning through forming higher n order abstractions. Individual performance can and should only be evaluated at any specific given moment and time and are the product of developmental factors. One can only abstract from a given system like 41, 25, 49, n , if they are given that system to analyze - effectively nullifying any supposed quality of 'intelligence'. You can't give someone half of an idea, and then give them credit for the whole. In the real world, we don't know what elements are in are set, or what, when or exactly where we have to think hard. And ideally, 'smart' people should be defined as those who come up with new ideas from their own experimental models (sets)....yeah we don't live an ideal world.

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duck sphere

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1^100
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Is is iq
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Optimissed wrote:
johnzade wrote:
RikkiTikkiTavi wrote:
ciljettu wrote:

Don't get me started on lefty liberal constructs like "social", "interpersonal" or the newly fangled "emotional intelligence".

I don't buy it either. So-called emotional intelligence is mainly about low levels of tension, vanity and so forth and higher levels of sociableness. It doesn't relate to the sort of intelligence that IQ is concerned with. That is, of course, obvious, but all this stuff about emotional intelligence is like buying a very short person a pair of high heeled shoes.

For me intelligence is raw cognitive power. Things like interpersonal intelligence involve not being an a-hole and have nothing to do with intelligence IMHO.
I think I agree with this.

That is unfortunately a very common and very arbitrary take on a protean notion of intelligence. The supposed generality of human intelligence is not a law of the universe, but a convenient postulate of the talentless plethora. Most experts in fields like science in math are not trapped within the limited rules of that field
Do I agree? No, I think most are trapped by virtue of their excellence in limited fields.

(and not by chance that almost all practical contributions in science/math, come from experts within a field - not plumbers with a sense of rationalistic, intellectual grandiosity.
You'd expect that, because it's their field of work. Excellence in fly-tying probably is less often found among mathematicians.

High expertise in one (open) system, doesn't mean that one isn't free to create elementary associations with information outside of their field. If a field of study includes facts (elements) A, B, and C, there is nothing that prevents an expert from associating element B with element D (on the grounds of some subtle pattern or anomaly), from some other field. The brain does not compartmentalize information sets, it has very broad neuronal networks that constantly associate patterns. Of course, there are always those 'intellectual dicks' who are purely interested in aimless 'fact finding' within their respective fields - these are people confuse their ability to learn with intelligence, and are extremely narrow thinkers. It's very likely not just IQ, but limitations of the neural inter-complexity and computational speed (intuition) of individuals is what allows some to actually apply information they've learned in ways to solve problems and exhibit higher learning through forming higher n order abstractions.

Possibly, yes. I wonder is that's a learned skill? I think it is, suggesting that too much specialisation is intellectually limiting, which brings us back to the point about them being trapped by their excellence.

Individual performance can and should only be evaluated at any specific given moment and time and are the product of developmental factors. One can only abstract from a given system like 41, 25, 49, n , if they are given that system to analyze - effectively nullifying any supposed quality of 'intelligence'. You can't give someone half of an idea, and then give them credit for the whole. In the real world, we don't know what elements are in are set, or what, when or exactly where we have to think hard. And ideally, 'smart' people should be defined as those who come up with new ideas from their own experimental models (sets)....yeah we don't live an ideal world.

Is this last paragraph an example of the sort of "intellectual dickery" we're told to avoid?

Just a subtle note that there are no plumbers who have contributed to mathematics, but there have certainly been mathematicians (or, at least, those heavily trained in math) who have contributed to plumbing.

An expert can always stop, and be burdened by the same mundane issues as the laymen, but many of them have the good taste not to care so much about such things. A person of intellect (not simply an 'expert') has developed more bridges (unbeknownst to them) from theory to practice, and from practice to theory - so it's not so much they think 'harder' (cognitive load), as that they will inevitably ponder about the world in ways that common men are oblivious to. Put simply, a person of intellect has 'perspective'.

Finally, promoting the archaic concept of IQ, with little understanding of Western philosophy of mind, makes for a foolish enterprise. And unlike the fudged statistics suggest, and collusive g-men have urged, it is in fact, that IQ has failed to adequately predict job performance, educational quality, and income for over 100 years. Unfortunately, just because they found it impossible to make IQ correlate with the system, doesn't mean it's impossible to engineer the system to correlate with IQ.

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johnzade wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
johnzade wrote:
RikkiTikkiTavi wrote:
ciljettu wrote:

Don't get me started on lefty liberal constructs like "social", "interpersonal" or the newly fangled "emotional intelligence".

I don't buy it either. So-called emotional intelligence is mainly about low levels of tension, vanity and so forth and higher levels of sociableness. It doesn't relate to the sort of intelligence that IQ is concerned with. That is, of course, obvious, but all this stuff about emotional intelligence is like buying a very short person a pair of high heeled shoes.

For me intelligence is raw cognitive power. Things like interpersonal intelligence involve not being an a-hole and have nothing to do with intelligence IMHO.
I think I agree with this.

That is unfortunately a very common and very arbitrary take on a protean notion of intelligence. The supposed generality of human intelligence is not a law of the universe, but a convenient postulate of the talentless plethora. Most experts in fields like science in math are not trapped within the limited rules of that field
Do I agree? No, I think most are trapped by virtue of their excellence in limited fields.

(and not by chance that almost all practical contributions in science/math, come from experts within a field - not plumbers with a sense of rationalistic, intellectual grandiosity.
You'd expect that, because it's their field of work. Excellence in fly-tying probably is less often found among mathematicians.

High expertise in one (open) system, doesn't mean that one isn't free to create elementary associations with information outside of their field. If a field of study includes facts (elements) A, B, and C, there is nothing that prevents an expert from associating element B with element D (on the grounds of some subtle pattern or anomaly), from some other field. The brain does not compartmentalize information sets, it has very broad neuronal networks that constantly associate patterns. Of course, there are always those 'intellectual dicks' who are purely interested in aimless 'fact finding' within their respective fields - these are people confuse their ability to learn with intelligence, and are extremely narrow thinkers. It's very likely not just IQ, but limitations of the neural inter-complexity and computational speed (intuition) of individuals is what allows some to actually apply information they've learned in ways to solve problems and exhibit higher learning through forming higher n order abstractions.

Possibly, yes. I wonder is that's a learned skill? I think it is, suggesting that too much specialisation is intellectually limiting, which brings us back to the point about them being trapped by their excellence.

Individual performance can and should only be evaluated at any specific given moment and time and are the product of developmental factors. One can only abstract from a given system like 41, 25, 49, n , if they are given that system to analyze - effectively nullifying any supposed quality of 'intelligence'. You can't give someone half of an idea, and then give them credit for the whole. In the real world, we don't know what elements are in are set, or what, when or exactly where we have to think hard. And ideally, 'smart' people should be defined as those who come up with new ideas from their own experimental models (sets)....yeah we don't live an ideal world.

Is this last paragraph an example of the sort of "intellectual dickery" we're told to avoid?

Just a subtle note that there are no plumbers who have contributed to mathematics, but there have certainly been mathematicians (or, at least, those heavily trained in math) who have contributed to plumbing.

An expert can always stop, and be burdened by the same mundane issues as the laymen, but many of them have the good taste not to care so much about such things. A person of intellect (not simply an 'expert') has developed more bridges (unbeknownst to them) from theory to practice, and from practice to theory - so it's not so much they think 'harder' (cognitive load), as that they will inevitably ponder about the world in ways that common men are oblivious to. Put simply, a person of intellect has 'perspective'.

Finally, promoting the archaic concept of IQ, with little understanding of Western philosophy of mind, makes for a foolish enterprise. And unlike the fudged statistics suggest, and collusive g-men have urged, it is in fact, that IQ has failed to adequately predict job performance, educational quality, and income for over 100 years. Unfortunately, just because they found it impossible to make IQ correlate with the system, doesn't mean it's impossible to engineer the system to correlate with IQ.

I might sleep while reading this post.

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Optimissed wrote:
CountMagnuscarl wrote:

The IQ of Magnus carlsen is... 160 IQ!

Guys i am true ok?

He had it measured by a reputable and reliable testing system? Doubt it.

i found its is now 190 iq For Magnus.

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150 sum
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130+

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Chess play isn't a reliable way to measure IQ. Probably just a average IQ.

Avatar of Kakashicopyninja43
Optimissed wrote:
CountMagnuscarl wrote:
johnzade wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
johnzade wrote:
RikkiTikkiTavi wrote:
ciljettu wrote:

Don't get me started on lefty liberal constructs like "social", "interpersonal" or the newly fangled "emotional intelligence".

I don't buy it either. So-called emotional intelligence is mainly about low levels of tension, vanity and so forth and higher levels of sociableness. It doesn't relate to the sort of intelligence that IQ is concerned with. That is, of course, obvious, but all this stuff about emotional intelligence is like buying a very short person a pair of high heeled shoes.

For me intelligence is raw cognitive power. Things like interpersonal intelligence involve not being an a-hole and have nothing to do with intelligence IMHO.
I think I agree with this.

That is unfortunately a very common and very arbitrary take on a protean notion of intelligence. The supposed generality of human intelligence is not a law of the universe, but a convenient postulate of the talentless plethora. Most experts in fields like science in math are not trapped within the limited rules of that field
Do I agree? No, I think most are trapped by virtue of their excellence in limited fields.

(and not by chance that almost all practical contributions in science/math, come from experts within a field - not plumbers with a sense of rationalistic, intellectual grandiosity.
You'd expect that, because it's their field of work. Excellence in fly-tying probably is less often found among mathematicians.

High expertise in one (open) system, doesn't mean that one isn't free to create elementary associations with information outside of their field. If a field of study includes facts (elements) A, B, and C, there is nothing that prevents an expert from associating element B with element D (on the grounds of some subtle pattern or anomaly), from some other field. The brain does not compartmentalize information sets, it has very broad neuronal networks that constantly associate patterns. Of course, there are always those 'intellectual dicks' who are purely interested in aimless 'fact finding' within their respective fields - these are people confuse their ability to learn with intelligence, and are extremely narrow thinkers. It's very likely not just IQ, but limitations of the neural inter-complexity and computational speed (intuition) of individuals is what allows some to actually apply information they've learned in ways to solve problems and exhibit higher learning through forming higher n order abstractions.

Possibly, yes. I wonder is that's a learned skill? I think it is, suggesting that too much specialisation is intellectually limiting, which brings us back to the point about them being trapped by their excellence.

Individual performance can and should only be evaluated at any specific given moment and time and are the product of developmental factors. One can only abstract from a given system like 41, 25, 49, n , if they are given that system to analyze - effectively nullifying any supposed quality of 'intelligence'. You can't give someone half of an idea, and then give them credit for the whole. In the real world, we don't know what elements are in are set, or what, when or exactly where we have to think hard. And ideally, 'smart' people should be defined as those who come up with new ideas from their own experimental models (sets)....yeah we don't live an ideal world.

Is this last paragraph an example of the sort of "intellectual dickery" we're told to avoid?

Just a subtle note that there are no plumbers who have contributed to mathematics, but there have certainly been mathematicians (or, at least, those heavily trained in math) who have contributed to plumbing.

An expert can always stop, and be burdened by the same mundane issues as the laymen, but many of them have the good taste not to care so much about such things. A person of intellect (not simply an 'expert') has developed more bridges (unbeknownst to them) from theory to practice, and from practice to theory - so it's not so much they think 'harder' (cognitive load), as that they will inevitably ponder about the world in ways that common men are oblivious to. Put simply, a person of intellect has 'perspective'.

Finally, promoting the archaic concept of IQ, with little understanding of Western philosophy of mind, makes for a foolish enterprise. And unlike the fudged statistics suggest, and collusive g-men have urged, it is in fact, that IQ has failed to adequately predict job performance, educational quality, and income for over 100 years. Unfortunately, just because they found it impossible to make IQ correlate with the system, doesn't mean it's impossible to engineer the system to correlate with IQ.

I might sleep while reading this post.

Just to point out that nothing written there is anything I wrote. I agree.

I would add that a person's environment and lack of resources can in of its self produce a genius or completely destroy the possibility.

Avatar of Kakashicopyninja43

For reference Albert Einsteins iq was 160 and he played chess, but was never a GM...

Avatar of V_Awful_Chess
Kakashicopyninja43 wrote:

For reference Albert Einsteins iq was 160 and he played chess, but was never a GM...

No it wasn't. The closest thing Einstein did to an IQ test is the Edison test, and he failed that so he couldn't have scored that highly. People’s estimate of Einstein's IQ is wholly made-up.

Avatar of Kakashicopyninja43
V_Awful_Chess wrote:
Kakashicopyninja43 wrote:

For reference Albert Einsteins iq was 160 and he played chess, but was never a GM...

No it wasn't. The closest thing Einstein did to an IQ test is the Edison test, and he failed that so he couldn't have scored that highly. People’s estimate of Einstein's IQ is wholly made-up.

You are correct, but many experts agree he had a IQ very close to 160. Let's agree he was a

very smart man, perhaps in the top 100 ever to exist.

Avatar of V_Awful_Chess
Kakashicopyninja43 wrote:
V_Awful_Chess wrote:
Kakashicopyninja43 wrote:

For reference Albert Einsteins iq was 160 and he played chess, but was never a GM...

No it wasn't. The closest thing Einstein did to an IQ test is the Edison test, and he failed that so he couldn't have scored that highly. People’s estimate of Einstein's IQ is wholly made-up.

You are correct, but many experts agree he had a IQ very close to 160. Let's agree he was a

very smart man, perhaps in the top 100 ever to exist.

Einstein was very intelligent, but we have no idea if this intelligence would have been measurable on IQ tests or not.

In the same way the Magnus Carlsen is very intelligent, but we have no idea if this intelligence is measurable on IQ tests or not.

I'm not sure if the 160 IQ estimate is even from experts, as far as I'm concerned it came from random newspapers. The number is wholly made up.

Avatar of V_Awful_Chess

If anything, I would expect Carlsen's IQ would higher than Einsteins if they took a test, because:

a) Chess and chess puzzles are closer to IQ test questions than the process of writing a physics paper

and b) Einstein has a record of failing an aptitude test, to my knowledge Carlsen does not.

However, this is speculation. Neither of them took an IQ test, so both of their IQ is unknown.

Avatar of Kakashicopyninja43
V_Awful_Chess wrote:

If anything, I would expect Carlsen's IQ would higher than Einsteins if they took a test, because:

a) Chess and chess puzzles are closer to IQ test questions than the process of writing a physics paper

and b) Einstein has a record of failing an aptitude test, to my knowledge Carlsen does not.

However, this is speculation. Neither of them took an IQ test, so both of their IQ is unknown.

Chess is a game, but writing the theory of everything or string theory in math is entirely a different monster in every regard. I don't think Magnus has the maths. I also am a fan of the goat Magnus, but we are comparing two very different things. I think Magnus is around 130 IQ and is the best chess player to play, so far.