One more test? Original position, Black to move, Knight back on a7 but this time White's Knight on e2. Thank you.
Engine gives white an edge but not a clear win, in this kind of position engine evals are not always reliable if a clear win is not found. Black will probably win the c-pawn after Rb4 but white gets pretty good play with the knight coming to g3 and possibly h5 targeting f6 and also with the rooks along the e-file.
I guess I was completely wrong then, the Knight is good on that outpost :(. Thank you for this lesson :)
However, I think you will find that it says "what is better when both sides are EQUAL"
I guess I was completely wrong then, the Knight is good on that outpost :(. Thank you for this lesson :)
Hehe, thank Houdini. I made the position but I certainly wouldn't be able to analyse all the tactical nuances without an engine. At least not in a few minutes like I did here.
Which one is better when both sides are equal though
Which one is better when both sides are equal though
It's up to you to make the position favour the minor pieces you have.
X
Re the above position (that with the two bishops, two knights and Kings) - agreed, the bishops have basically imprisoned the knights, but only so long as they remain in their present positions.
Well done. You get the trophy
See comment on top of page for reference
He shouldn't since that position is drawn.
It is drawn if it is Black's move, winning for White if it is his move.
Well done. You get the trophy
See comment on top of page for reference
He shouldn't since that position is drawn.
It is drawn if it is Black's move, winning for White if it is his move.
Right you are...is the 50 move rule waived in the KBB vs KN endgame because the tablebase says that after the first knight is captured it takes 51 moves to win the second one. Of course this is a theoretical endgame I expect it would be nearly impossible to win OTB.
That is only because it is set up to find the fastest mate, not the fastest way to win the second Knight. I am sure that there are thousands of ways to win the second Knight without drawing the game that just mate slower than 69 moves. Silly argument anyway lol, as you say, OTB none of this matters, even between super GMs.
In order to analyze whether the question of which piece, N or B, is better to have; it is necessary to divide the question into 3 parts:
A preliminary piece of information that almost all strong players accept- exchanging a N for a B is recognized as winning THE MINOR EXCHANGE. For now we will disregard this piece of information and test it's observable truth in sample games.
1. Compare the attributes/powers of the B vs. N without reference to an actual position.
a. The B can gain or lose a tempo in almost any position. The N CANNOT. A N can never gain or lose a tempo. {This factor is a permanent (dynamic aspect) of a positional advantage for the B no matter what the position on the board.}
b. The B can pin/skewer enemy pawns and pieces. The N CANNOT ( This is a tactical/strategic advantage for the B no matter what the position on the board)
c. The B can cross the board in one move. The N CANNOT. It can cross the board in between 4 and 5 moves. { This is a time ( dynamic aspect) of an advantage for the B regardless of the position)
d. The B can fork up to 4 pieces and pawns. There is no stealth or surprise value against the opponent in the B fork. The N can fork up to 8 pieces and pawns. The N does have stealth and surprise to the opponent value in its forking ability. ( This a tactical/strategic advantage for the N, regardless of the position)
e. The B can trap the N on the edge of the board. The N CANNOT trap the B on the edge of the board. In fact the N must have the assistance of another pawn, piece or K in order to trap the B. ( The B can outmaneuver the N in most positions giving the B a time/space/material(the minor exchange) advantage.
f. The B CANNOT jump over other pieces or pawns. The N can jump over as many as 2 pawns or pieces. ( In most positions this gives the N a time/space/material(exception to minor exchange rule) advantage over the B)
g. The B is permanently on one color square. The N alternates square color with every move. ( Advantage to the N because it can correct color square complex weakness. The B CANNOT. It is meekly dependent on its fellow B, pawns and other pieces to correct color square complex weakness.
h. The B is very effective at hemming in enemy pawns. The N IS NOT. ( Advantage to the B, it can create dynamic aspect space advantage.
i. The B is very effective at long distance attacks (fianchetto B). The N CANNOT attack from long distances. (advantage to B).
j. The B can attack from short distances but is more effective mostly from long distances. The N is very effective at attacking from short distances inside enemy territory. (advantage to N)
TO BE CONTINUED TOMORROW
At the risk of interrupting the above contributer, it seems to me that bishops "fork" enemy pieces far less frequently than knights, as it is not so easy for them to do so. The intended victim will "see them coming" more easily.
RG1951 wrote:
At the risk of interrupting the above contributer, it seems to me that bishops "fork" enemy pieces far less frequently than knights, as it is not so easy for them to do so. The intended victim will "see them coming" more easily.
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You are right. I have amended my post to highlight that fact.
RG1951 wrote:
At the risk of interrupting the above contributer, it seems to me that bishops "fork" enemy pieces far less frequently than knights, as it is not so easy for them to do so. The intended victim will "see them coming" more easily
my point exactly
In order to analyze whether the question of which piece, N or B, is better to have; it is necessary to divide the question into 3 parts:
A preliminary piece of information that almost all strong players accept- exchanging a N for a B is recognized as winning THE MINOR EXCHANGE. For now we will disregard this piece of information and test it's observable truth in sample games.
1. Compare the attributes/powers of the B vs. N without reference to an actual position.
a. The B can gain or lose a tempo in almost any position. The N CANNOT. A N can never gain or lose a tempo. {This factor is a permanent (dynamic aspect) of a positional advantage for the B no matter what the position on the board.}
b. The B can pin/skewer enemy pawns and pieces. The N CANNOT ( This is a tactical/strategic advantage for the B no matter what the position on the board)
c. The B can cross the board in one move. The N CANNOT. It can cross the board in between 4 and 5 moves. { This is a time ( dynamic aspect) of an advantage for the B regardless of the position)
d. The B can fork up to 4 pieces and pawns. There is no stealth or surprise value against the opponent in the B fork. The N can fork up to 8 pieces and pawns. The N does have stealth and surprise to the opponent value in its forking ability. ( This a tactical/strategic advantage for the N, regardless of the position)
e. The B can trap the N on the edge of the board. The N CANNOT trap the B on the edge of the board. In fact the N must have the assistance of another pawn, piece or K in order to trap the B. ( The B can outmaneuver the N in most positions giving the B a time/space/material(the minor exchange) advantage.
f. The B CANNOT jump over other pieces or pawns. The N can jump over as many as 2 pawns or pieces. ( In most positions this gives the N a time/space/material(exception to minor exchange rule) advantage over the B)
g. The B is permanently on one color square. The N alternates square color with every move. ( Advantage to the N because it can correct color square complex weakness. The B CANNOT. It is meekly dependent on its fellow B, pawns and other pieces to correct color square complex weakness.
h. The B is very effective at hemming in enemy pawns. The N IS NOT. ( Advantage to the B, it can create dynamic aspect space advantage.
i. The B is very effective at long distance attacks (fianchetto B). The N CANNOT attack from long distances. (advantage to B).
j. The B can attack from short distances but is more effective mostly from long distances. The N is very effective at attacking from short distances inside enemy territory. (advantage to N)
TO BE CONTINUED TOMORROW
TL;DR
anyhoo
knights are more unpredictable
but bishops can move farther
but bishops have up to 4 directions available
but knights have up to 8
but bishops have more squares available
In order to analyze whether the question of which piece, N or B, is better to have; it is necessary to divide the question into 3 parts:
A preliminary piece of information that almost all strong players accept- exchanging a N for a B is recognized as winning THE MINOR EXCHANGE. For now we will disregard this piece of information and test it's observable truth in sample games.
1. Compare the attributes/powers of the B vs. N without reference to an actual position.
a. The B can gain or lose a tempo in almost any position. The N CANNOT. A N can never gain or lose a tempo. {This factor is a permanent (dynamic aspect) of a positional advantage for the B no matter what the position on the board.}
b. The B can pin/skewer enemy pawns and pieces. The N CANNOT ( This is a tactical/strategic advantage for the B no matter what the position on the board)
c. The B can cross the board in one move. The N CANNOT. It can cross the board in between 4 and 5 moves. { This is a time ( dynamic aspect) of an advantage for the B regardless of the position)
d. The B can fork up to 4 pieces and pawns. There is no stealth or surprise value against the opponent in the B fork. The N can fork up to 8 pieces and pawns. The N does have stealth and surprise to the opponent value in its forking ability. ( This a tactical/strategic advantage for the N, regardless of the position)
e. The B can trap the N on the edge of the board. The N CANNOT trap the B on the edge of the board. In fact the N must have the assistance of another pawn, piece or K in order to trap the B. ( The B can outmaneuver the N in most positions giving the B a time/space/material(the minor exchange) advantage.
f. The B CANNOT jump over other pieces or pawns. The N can jump over as many as 2 pawns or pieces. ( In most positions this gives the N a time/space/material(exception to minor exchange rule) advantage over the B)
g. The B is permanently on one color square. The N alternates square color with every move. ( Advantage to the N because it can correct color square complex weakness. The B CANNOT. It is meekly dependent on its fellow B, pawns and other pieces to correct color square complex weakness.
h. The B is very effective at hemming in enemy pawns. The N IS NOT. ( Advantage to the B, it can create dynamic aspect space advantage.
i. The B is very effective at long distance attacks (fianchetto B). The N CANNOT attack from long distances. (advantage to B).
j. The B can attack from short distances but is more effective mostly from long distances. The N is very effective at attacking from short distances inside enemy territory. (advantage to N)
TO BE CONTINUED TOMORROW
One of very few posts in these forums that is worth reading. Thanks.
Plus it's too late as I already gave him the trophy
:(