Who was the all time best

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goldendog
Reb wrote:

How much did Karpov's rating go up from the time he became WC (1975 ) to 1985 ? I cant find any ratings on him before 2000 or so..... 


I have snippets of the tops of those old lists but I'll have to dig them out.

fabelhaft
Reb wrote:

How much did Karpov's rating go up from the time he became WC (1975 ) to 1985 ? I cant find any ratings on him before 2000 or so..... 

Carlsen has proven himself a great tournament player but he has yet to prove himself in match play against elite players and until he does he certainly doesnt have the chess credentials that Anand, Kramnik, Topalov have........


Very little, Karpov seems to have been stuck around 2700 most of that decade. As for Carlsen, well, maybe Topalov should be ranked ahead of him but hardly for his match credentials. I wonder if it is much of a difference between matches and tournaments though, many players never play a match nowadays and only the greatest players have scored such tournaments results as Carlsen the last years.

TheOldReb

I think there is a big difference between matches and tournaments. Geller was a great tournament player but failed in matches. Petrosian wasnt so great in tournaments but was a great match  player. In a match you only need to win one game while not losing any and you will win the match. In a tournament if you try that you have no hope of winning the tournament because someone is gonna win several games........ 

goldendog

1970 FIDE rating list. Top 7 players
  
    1 Fischer Robert James..............   USA  2720
  2-3 Spassky, Boris....................   URS  2670
      Korchnoi, Viktor..................   URS  2670
  4-5 Geller, Efim......................   URS  2660
      Keres, Paul.......................   URS  2660
  6-7 Larsen, Bent......................   DEN  2650
      Petrosian, Tigran.................   URS  2650
 
  January 1971 FIDE rating list. Top 9 players
  
    1 Fischer Robert James..............   USA  2740
    2 Spassky, Boris....................   URS  2690
  3-4 Kortchnoi, Viktor.................   URS  2660
      Larsen, Bent......................   DEN  2660
    5 Petrosian, Tigran.................   URS  2640
  6-9 Portisch, Lajos...................   HUN  2630
      Botvinnik. Mikhail................   URS  2630
      Geller, Efim......................   URS  2630
      Polugaevsky, Lev..................   URS  2630
 
  July 1971 FIDE rating list. Top 6 players
  
    1 Fischer Robert James..............   USA  2760
    2 Spassky, Boris....................   URS  2690
    3 Kortchnoi, Viktor.................   URS  2670
    4 Larsen, Bent......................   DEN  2660
  5-6 Petrosian, Tigran.................   URS  2640
      Polugaevsky, Lev..................   URS  2640
 
  July 1972 FIDE rating list. Top 6 players
  
    1 Fischer Robert James..............   USA  2785
    2 Spassky, Boris....................   URS  2660
  3-4 Petrosian, Tigran.................   URS  2645
      Polugaevsky, Lev..................   URS  2645
  5-6 Kortchnoi, Viktor.................   URS  2640
      Portisch, Lajos...................   HUN  2640
 
  July 1973 FIDE rating list. Top 6 players
  
    1 Fischer Robert James..............   USA  2780
  2-3 Karpov, Anatoly...................   URS  2660 
      Tal, Mikhail......................   URS  2660
    4 Spassky, Boris....................   URS  2655
  5-6 Portisch, Lajos...................   HUN  2650
      Kortchnoi, Viktor.................   URS  2650
 
  May 1974 FIDE rating list. Top 6 players
  
    1 Fischer Robert James..............   USA  2780
    2 Karpov, Anatoly...................   URS  2700 
    3 Kortchnoi, Viktor.................   URS  2670
    4 Spassky, Boris....................   URS  2650
    5 Portisch, Lajos...................   HUN  2645
    6 Petrosian, Tigran.................   URS  2640
 
  January 1975 FIDE rating list. Top 6 players
  
    1 Fischer Robert James..............   USA  2780
    2 Karpov, Anatoly...................   URS  2705
    3 Kortchnoi, Viktor.................   URS  2655
  4-6 Petrosian, Tigran.................   URS  2645
      Polugaevsky, Lev..................   URS  2645
      Tal, Mikhail......................   URS  2645
 
  January 1976 FIDE rating list. Top 7 players
  
    1 Karpov, Anatoly...................   URS  2695
    2 Kortchnoi, Viktor.................   URS  2670
  3-4 Petrosian, Tigran.................   URS  2635
      Polugaevsky, Lev..................   URS  2635
    5 Spassky, Boris....................   URS  2630
  6-7 Larsen, Bent......................   DEN  2625
      Portisch, Lajos...................   HUN  2625
 
  January 1977 FIDE rating list. Top 8 players
  
    1 Karpov, Anatoly...................   URS  2690
  2-3 Kortchnoi, Viktor.................   URS  2645
      Petrosian, Tigran.................   URS  2645
    4 Mecking, Enrique..................   BRA  2635  
    5 Portisch, Lajos...................   HUN  2625
  6-8 Hort, Vlastimil...................   CZE  2620    
      Polugaevsky, Lev..................   URS  2620
      Tal, Mikhail......................   URS  2620
 
  January 1978 FIDE rating list. Top 6 players
  
    1 Karpov, Anatoly...................   URS  2725
    2 Kortchnoi, Viktor.................   URS  2665
  3-5 Mecking, Enrique..................   BRA  2630  
      Portisch, Lajos...................   HUN  2630
      Spassky, Boris....................   URS  2630
    6 Tal, Mikhail......................   URS  2625
 
  January 1979 FIDE rating list. Top 6 players
  
    1 Karpov, Anatoly...................   URS  2705
    2 Kortchnoi, Viktor.................   SWZ  2695
  3-4 Spassky, Boris....................   URS  2640
      Portisch, Lajos...................   HUN  2640
  5-6 Polugaevsky, Lev..................   URS  2625
      Timman, Jan.......................   NLD  2625
 
  January 1980 FIDE rating list. Top 8 players
  
    1 Karpov, Anatoly...................   URS  2725
    2 Tal, Mikhail......................   URS  2705
    3 Kortchnoi, Viktor.................   SWZ  2695
    4 Portisch, Lajos...................   HUN  2655
    5 Polugaevsky, Lev..................   URS  2635
  6-8 Spassky, Boris....................   URS  2615
      Petrosian, Tigran.................   URS  2615
      Mecking, Enrique..................   BRA  2615
 
  July 1981 FIDE rating list. Top 6 players
  
    1 Karpov, Anatoly...................   URS  2690
  2-3 Kortchnoi, Viktor.................   SWZ  2650
      Portisch, Lajos...................   HUN  2650
  4-5 Huebner, Robert...................   FRG  2635
      Spassky, Boris....................   URS  2635
    6 Kasparov, Gary....................   URS  2625
 
  January 1982 FIDE rating list. Top 6 players
  
    1 Karpov, Anatoly...................   URS  2700
    2 Timman, Jan.......................   NLD  2655
    3 Kortchnoi, Viktor.................   SWZ  2645
    4 Kasparov, Gary....................   URS  2640
    5 Portisch, Lajos...................   HUN  2630
    6 Spassky, Boris....................   URS  2625
 
  July 1982 FIDE rating list. Top 6 players
  
    1 Karpov, Anatoly...................   URS  2700
    2 Kasparov, Gary....................   URS  2675
    3 Kortchnoi, Viktor.................   SWZ  2635
    4 Huebner, Robert...................   FRG  2630
    5 Portisch, Lajos...................   HUN  2625
    6 Beliavsky, Alexander..............   URS  2620
 
  January 1983 FIDE rating list. Top 6 players
  
    1 Karpov, Anatoly...................   URS  2710
    2 Kasparov, Gary....................   URS  2690
    3 Ljubojevic, Ljubomir..............   YUG  2645
    4 Andersson, Ulf....................   SWE  2635
  5-6 Huebner, Robert...................   FRG  2625
      Polugaevsky, Lev..................   URS  2625
 
  July 1983 FIDE rating list. Top 8 players
  
    1 Karpov, Anatoly...................   URS  2710
    2 Kasparov, Gary....................   URS  2690
    3 Ljubojevic, Ljubomir..............   YUG  2645
    4 Andersson, Ulf....................   SWE  2640
  5-8 Huebner, Robert...................   FRG  2620
      Vaganian, Rafael..................   URS  2620
      Tal, Mikhail......................   URS  2620
      Polugaevsky, Lev..................   URS  2620
 
  January 1984 FIDE rating list. Top 11 players
  
    1 Kasparov, Gary....................   URS  2710
    2 Karpov, Anatoly...................   URS  2700
  3-4 Kortchnoi, Viktor.................   URS  2635 
      Ljubojevic, Ljubomir..............   YUG  2635
  5-6 Andersson, Ulf....................   SWE  2630
      Vaganian, Rafael..................   URS  2630
    7 Portisch, Lajos...................   HUN  2625
  8-9 Tal, Mikhail......................   URS  2620
      Huebner, Robert...................   FRG  2620
10-11 Polugaevsky, Lev..................   URS  2615
      Hort, Vlastimil...................   URS  2615
 
  July 1984 FIDE rating list. Top 6 players
  
    1 Kasparov, Gary....................   URS  2715
    2 Karpov, Anatoly...................   URS  2705
    3 Timman, Jan.......................   NLD  2650
    4 Portisch, Lajos...................   HUN  2640
    5 Kortchnoi, Viktor.................   URS  2635
    6 Polugaevsky, Lev..................   URS  2625
 
  January 1985 FIDE rating list. Top 10 players
  
    1 Kasparov, Gary....................   URS  2715
    2 Karpov, Anatoly...................   URS  2705
    3 Timman, Jan.......................   NLD  2650
    4 Vaganian, Rafael..................   URS  2640
  5-6 Beliavsky, Alexander..............   URS  2635 
      Portisch, Lajos...................   HUN  2635
    7 Kortchnoi, Viktor.................   SWZ  2630
    8 Polugaevsky, Lev..................   URS  2625
 9-10 Nunn, John........................   ENG  2615
      Ribli Zoltan......................   HUN  2615
 
  July 1985 FIDE rating list. Top 7 players
  
    1 Karpov, Anatoly...................   URS  2720
    2 Kasparov, Gary....................   URS  2700
  3-4 Beliavsky, Alexander..............   URS  2640
      Timman, Jan.......................   NLD  2640
    5 Kortchnoi, Viktor.................   SWZ  2630 (?)
  6-7 Portisch, Lajos...................   HUN  2635 (?)
      Vaganian, Rafael..................   URS  2635 (?)
 
  January 1986 FIDE rating list. Top 6 players
  
    1 Kasparov, Gary....................   URS  2720
    2 Karpov, Anatoly...................   URS  2700
  3-5 Timman, Jan.......................   NLD  2645
      Vaganian, Rafael..................   URS  2645
      Yusupov, Arthur...................   URS  2645
    6 Kortchnoi, Viktor.................   SWZ  2635
 
  July 1987 FIDE rating list. Top 8 players
  
    1 Kasparov, Gary....................   URS  2740
    2 Karpov, Anatoly...................   URS  2705
    3 Yusupov, Arthur...................   URS  2660
    4 Kortchnoi, Viktor.................   SWZ  2650
  5-8 Huebner, Robert...................   FRG  2620
      Sokolov, Andrei...................   URS  2620
      Spassky, Boris....................   URS  2620
      Timman, Jan.......................   NLD  2620
 
  January 1987 FIDE rating list. Top 6 players
  
    1 Kasparov, Gary....................   URS  2735
    2 Karpov, Anatoly...................   URS  2710
  3-4 Sokolov, Andrei...................   URS  2645
      Yusupov, Arthur...................   URS  2645
    5 Kortchnoi, Viktor.................   SWZ  2625
    6 Ljubojevic, Ljubomir..............   YUG  2620
 
  July 1987 FIDE rating list. Top 7 players
  
    1 Kasparov, Gary....................   URS  2740
    2 Karpov, Anatoly...................   URS  2700
  3-4 Yusupov, Arthur...................   URS  2635
      Sokolov, Andrei...................   URS  2635
  5-7 Kortchnoi, Viktor.................   SWZ  2630
      Timman, Jan.......................   NLD  2630
      Beliavsky, Alexander..............   URS  2630
 
  January 1988 FIDE rating list. Top 11 players
  
    1 Kasparov, Gary...................    URS  2750
    2 Karpov, Anatoly...................   URS  2715
    3 Timman, Jan.......................   NLD  2675
    4 Beliavsky, Alexander..............   URS  2645
    5 Kortchnoi, Viktor.................   SWZ  2640
  6-8 Tal, Mikhail......................   URS  2630
      Nikolic, Predrag..................   YUG  2630
      Short, Nigel......................   ENG  2630
 9-11 Yusupov, Arthur...................   URS  2625
      Speelman, Jonathan................   ENG  2625
      Gurevich, Mikhail.................   URS  2625
 
  July 1988 FIDE rating list. Top 13 players
  
    1 Kasparov, Gary....................   URS  2760
    2 Karpov, Anatoly...................   URS  2725
  3-4 Short, Nigel......................   ENG  2665
      Beliavsky, Alexander..............   URS  2665
    5 Timman, Jan.......................   NLD  2660 (2640?)
    6 Speelman, Jonathan................   ENG  2645
    7 Portisch Lajos....................   HUN  2635
  8-9 Gurevich, Mikhail.................   URS  2630
      Ribli, Zoltan.....................   HUN  2630
10-13 Ivanchuk, Vassily.................   URS  2625
      Andersson, Ulf....................   SWE  2625
      Salov, Valery.....................   URS  2625
      Nunn, John........................   ENG  2625 (2620?)
 
  January 1989 FIDE rating list. Top 10 players
  
    1 Kasparov, Gary....................   URS  2775
    2 Karpov, Anatoly...................   URS  2750
    3 Short, Nigel......................   ENG  2650
  4-5 Beliavsky, Alexander..............   URS  2640
      Speelman, Jonathan................   ENG  2640
    6 Ivanchuk, Vassily.................   URS  2635
    7 Salov, Valery.....................   URS  2630
    8 Ribli, Zoltan.....................   HUN  2625
 9-10 Andersson.........................   SWE  2620
      Nunn, John........................   ENG  2620
 
  July 1989 FIDE rating list. Top 10 players
  
    1 Kasparov, Gary....................   URS  2775
    2 Karpov, Anatoly...................   URS  2755
  3-4 Ivanchuk, Vassily.................   URS  2660
      Short, Nigel......................   ENG  2660
    5 Kortchnoi, Viktor.................   SWZ  2655
    6 Salov, Valery.....................   URS  2645
    7 Gurevich, Mikhail.................   URS  2640
 8-10 Timman, Jan.......................   NED  2635
      Ljubojevic, Ljubomir..............   YUG  2635
      Andersson, Ulf....................   SWE  2635
 
  January 1990 FIDE rating list. Top 11 players
 
    1 Kasparov, Gary....................   URS  2800 11
    2 Karpov, Anatoly...................   URS  2730 30
    3 Timman, Jan.......................   NLD  2680 23
    4 Ivanchuk, Vassily.................   URS  2665 21
  5-6 Gurevich, Mikhail.................   URS  2645 38
      Salov, Valery.....................   URS  2645 17
    7 Beliavsky, Alexander..............   URS  2640 32
    8 Short, Nigel......................   ENG  2635 36
    9 Andersson, Ulf....................   SVE  2630 39
10-11 Kortchnoi, Viktor.................   SWZ  2625 37
      Ljubojevic, Ljubomir..............   JUG  2625 11

  July 1990 FIDE rating list. Top 10 players
 
    1 Kasparov, Gary....................   URS  2800 11
    2 Karpov, Anatoly...................   URS  2730 30
  3-4 Gelfand, Boris....................   URS  2680 31
      Ivanchuk, Vassily.................   URS  2680 21
    5 Timman, Jan.......................   NLD  2660 23
  6-7 Ehlvest, Jaan.....................   URS  2655 41
      Salov, Valery.....................   URS  2655 17
    8 Kamsky, Gata......................   USA  2650 51
    9 Gurevich, Mikhail.................   URS  2640 38
   10 Seirawan, Yasser..................   USA  2635 46
 
  January 1991 FIDE rating list. Top 13 players
 
    1 Kasparov, Gary....................   URS  2800 0
    2 Karpov, Anatoly...................   URS  2725 14
    3 Gelfand, Boris....................   URS  2700 47
    4 Ivanchuk, Vassily.................   URS  2695 48
  5-7 Bareev, Evgeny....................   URS  2650 50
      Gurevich, Mikhail.................   URS  2650 24
      Ehlvest, Jaan.....................   URS  2650 13
  8-9 Yudasin, Leonid...................   URS  2645 44
      Salov, Valery.....................   URS  2645 7
10-13 Beliavsky, Alexander..............   URS  2640 44
      Andersson, Ulf....................   SWE  2640 42
      Khalifman, Alexander..............   GER  2640 37
      Kamsky, Gata......................   USA  2640 29
 
  July 1991 FIDE rating list. Top 14 players
 
    1 Kasparov, Gary....................   URS  2770 46
    2 Ivanchuk, Vassily.................   URS  2735 18
    3 Karpov, Anatoly...................   URS  2730 58
    4 Bareev, Evgeny....................   URS  2680 14
  5-6 Salov, Valery.....................   URS  2665 35
      Gelfand, Boris....................   URS  2665 34
    7 Short, Nigel......................   ENG  2660 29
    8 Beliavsky, Alexander..............   URS  2655 38
    9 Anand, Viswanathan................   IND  2650 43
10-14 Khalifman, Alexander..............   GER  2630 49
      Gurevich, Mikhail.................   URS  2630 38
      Speelman, Jonathan................   ENG  2630 35
      Timman, Jan.......................   NLD  2630 35
      Polugaevsky, Lev..................   URS  2630 15
 
  January 1992 FIDE rating list. Top 10 players
 
    1 Kasparov, Gary....................   URS  2780 14
    2 Karpov, Anatoly...................   URS  2725 37
    3 Ivanchuk, Vassily.................   URS  2720 32
    4 Short, Nigel......................   ENG  2685 22
    5 Anand, Viswanathan................   IND  2670 22
    6 Gelfand, Boris....................   URS  2665 19
 7-10 Shirov, Alexei....................   LAT  2655 61
      Kamsky, Gata......................   USA  2655 43
      Yusupov, Artur....................   URS  2655 32
      Salov, Valery.....................   URS  2655 17
 
  July 1992 FIDE rating list. Top 11 players
 
    1 Kasparov, Gary....................   RUS  2790 31
    2 Ivanchuk, Vassily.................   UKR  2720 37
    3 Karpov, Anatoly...................   RUS  2715 41
    4 Shirov, Alexei....................   LAT  2710 57
    5 Anand, Viswanathan................   IND  2690 48
    6 Gelfand, Boris....................   RUS  2685 46
    7 Short, Nigel......................   ENG  2680 38
    8 Bareev, Evgeny....................   RUS  2670 61
    9 Timman, Jan.......................   NLD  2665 37
10-11 Salov, Valery.....................   RUS  2655 53
      Kamsky, Gata......................   USA  2655 9
 
  January 1993 FIDE rating list. Top 10 players
 
    1 Kasparov, Gary....................   RUS  2805 18
    2 Karpov, Anatoly...................   RUS  2725 23
  3-4 Ivanchuk, Vassily.................   UKR  2710 37
      Anand, Viswanathan................   IND  2710 31
    5 Gelfand, Boris....................   BLA  2690 19
    6 Kramnik, Vladimir.................   RUS  2685 27
  7-8 Shirov, Alexei....................   LAT  2670 38
      Bareev, Evgeny....................   RUS  2670 8
 9-10 Georgiev, Kiril...................   BUL  2660 65
      Salov, Valery.....................   RUS  2660 9
 
  July 1993 FIDE rating list. Top 10 players
 
    1 Kasparov, Gary....................   RUS  2815 13
    2 Karpov, Anatoly...................   RUS  2760 61
    3 Anand, Viswanathan................   IND  2725 19
    4 Kramnik, Vladimir.................   RUS  2710 61
    5 Ivanchuk, Vassily.................   UKR  2705 13
  6-7 Shirov, Alexei....................   LAT  2685 54
      Salov, Valery.....................   RUS  2685 23
  8-9 Topalov, Veselin..................   BUL  2670 47
      Gelfand, Boris....................   BLA  2670 35
   10 Short, Nigel......................   ENG  2665 19
 
  January 1994 FIDE rating list. Top 10 players
 
    1 Kasparov, Gary....................   RUS  2815 0
    2 Karpov, Anatoly...................   RUS  2740 40
  3-4 Shirov, Alexei....................   LAT  2715 49
      Anand, Viswanathan................   IND  2715 37
  5-6 Ivanchuk, Vassily.................   UKR  2710 33
      Kramnik, Vladimir.................   RUS  2710 32
    7 Kamsky, Gata......................   USA  2695 36
 8-10 Salov, Valery.....................   RUS  2685 31
      Bareev, Evgeny....................   RUS  2685 29
      Gelfand, Boris....................   BLR  2685 23
 
  July 1994 FIDE rating list. Top 10 players
 
    1 Kasparov, Gary....................   RUS  2815 0
    2 Karpov, Anatoly...................   RUS  2780 24
    3 Shirov, Alexei....................   LAT  2740 36
    4 Kramnik, Vladimir.................   RUS  2725 43
    5 Anand, Viswanathan................   IND  2720 22
    6 Salov, Valery.....................   RUS  2710 21
  7-8 Kamsky, Gata......................   USA  2695 39
      Ivanchuk, Vassily.................   UKR  2695 14
    9 Gelfand, Boris....................   BLR  2680 20
   10 Bareev, Evgeny....................   RUS  2675 32

TheOldReb

Thanks for that Golden one !! 

soldierpiper

Alekhine would beat most of todays players if sober probably all of them.

jesterville

Kaspa was dominant for 20+ years...and after becoming WC he won or placed for 1st in every tournament he played in for 8 years...no one else has done this...

I also like Fischer's chess...but one cannot refuse to play strong opponents and claim to be "the man"...his reign was too short...and his "likeability index " is very low...

One player that deserves it but gets very little "media" is Karpov...maybe the best defensive player ever...and clearly in the top 4 or 5...

sapientdust

I agree that in absolute terms, Kasparov is the strongest player ever. But in relative terms -- relative to one's contemporaries -- Fischer comes out ahead (save for Steinitz, whose dominance was even greater, but in an earlier era when there was less high-level competition and chess theory was extremely primitive). Even Kasparov said in My Great Predecessors that no world champion had ever shown a superiority over his rivals as Fischer did in his 6-0 candidate matches.

You also have to consider that how much of a player's potential strength they are able to achieve depends on how strong their opponents are. Fischer was still improving when he stopped playing, and he would likely have improved more if he continued to play ever stronger players like Karpov.

soldierpiper

Fischer was his own worse enemy ,he chose to stop playing when he did.

sapientdust

Yep, no question about that, soldierpiper.

Arutha19

Chuck Norris. At everything.

The end.

fabelhaft
sapientdust wrote:

I agree that in absolute terms, Kasparov is the strongest player ever. But in relative terms -- relative to one's contemporaries -- Fischer comes out ahead (save for Steinitz, whose dominance was even greater, but in an earlier era when there was less high-level competition and chess theory was extremely primitive). Even Kasparov said in My Great Predecessors that no world champion had ever shown a superiority over his rivals as Fischer did in his 6-0 candidate matches.


From what year can a player be counted as the most dominant if Steinitz doesn't count because chess theory was too primitive? 1930 or 1950? As for Fischer's being more dominant than anyone else (apart from those too early to count), for how long was he that dominant? 6-0 6-0 was of course amazing, but did the actual result really matter? 

Both Taimanov and Larsen could easily have scored better results if they hadn't tried to win instead of taking draws after going behind. Would 5-1 5-1 really have been that special? Kamsky scored 10-3 against Short and Kramnik, also that in sequential Candidates matches. Great results, but no one remembers them. Who remembers Shirov's beating Polgar 5.5-0.5 in a match, when she was a much tougher opponent than Taimanov in 1971? And Fischer's 12.5-8.5 against Spassky was great, but not in any way greater than Tal's beating Botvinnik (a better player than Spassky) with the same score.

Nothing before 1971 was close to greatest ever top ten level for Fischer, and nothing after 1972 was that either, of course. And maybe the match against Spassky wasn't that either, at least not a better result than Tal's title win against Botvinnik and Tal is rarely ranked in the top ten. So Fischer's extreme dominance hardly lasted more than a year, and that in a period when there were no Karpovs or Kasparovs around. His opponents were great players but past their best and even at their best not exactly the greatest players ever. Of course he could have accomplished more if he had played more, but he would also show decline as all other players. That he was a really great player is of course nothing to discuss, but to be compared with Lasker and Kasparov he too would have had to prove himself against the best for decades rather than a year or at most two, as I see it.

jesterville

I think to consider "the best ever" the term "longevity" must play a part in this dicussion somewhere...to be a "flash in the pan" like Fischer's dominating stint for 1 year hardly equals...more time tested greats like Kasparov, Karpov, Capablanca and Lasker...who not only held the WCC for multiple years, but was not afraid to face challengers to their crown..."the longer one stands on top of the rock, the greater the chance of facing someone better than you..."

...no doubting Fischer's contribution to chess, but his accomplishments will always be tainted by his repugnant personality, and his refusal to face any challengers after becoming the "king of the hill"...it's like he won the WCC and was afraid to loose it so he just stopped playing...making him an unbeatten WCC? LOL ...this point was actually argued on this site.

...so here's a bit of trivia about the famous 1972 Fischer/Sparsky match which has not really been discussed here...before this match Fischer had not ever won a game against Sparsky ( 2 draws and 3 loses in 5 games )...

raul72
jesterville wrote:

I think to consider "the best ever" the term "longevity" must play a part in this dicussion somewhere...to be a "flash in the pan" like Fischer's dominating stint for 1 year hardly equals...more time tested greats like Kasparov, Karpov, Capablanca and Lasker...who not only held the WCC for multiple years, but was not afraid to face challengers to their crown..."the longer one stands on top of the rock, the greater the chance of facing someone better than you..."

...no doubting Fischer's contribution to chess, but his accomplishments will always be tainted by his repugnant personality, and his refusal to face any challengers after becoming the "king of the hill"...it's like he won the WCC and was afraid to loose it so he just stopped playing...making him an unbeatten WCC? LOL ...this point was actually argued on this site.

...so here's a bit of trivia about the famous 1972 Fischer/Sparsky match which has not really been discussed here...before this match Fischer had not ever won a game against Sparsky ( 2 draws and 3 loses in 5 games )...


 Jesterville said,

."..so here's a bit of trivia about the famous 1972 Fischer/Sparsky match which has not really been discussed here...before this match Fischer had not ever won a game against Sparsky ( 2 draws and 3 loses in 5 games )..."

Where in the world have you been pal?? Thats been discussed many times here---I have discussed it here myself. It means absolutely nothing. Everybody knew Fischer was going to win. The gambling houses of Europe had Fischer a solid favorite as did Vegas. Fischer was always taunting the Russian champion that he could give them a two game lead. I remember him telling Botvinnik that very thing. When he played Spassky he decided to put up or shut up---he ceded the first two games to Spassky and then crushed him.

Where do you get this one year domination from Fischer. The Russians were deeply concerned with Fischer for the previous 12 years. They were prearrainging games, throwing games ---they were pulling out all the stoppers on Fischer. They probably would never have lost the championship except for Fischers exposing them in the world wide media---The Russians have ruined international chess Bobby said and the world listened and chamged the way we select challengers for the champion.

Slam Fischer if you care to---but holy cow pal, HAVE SOME FACTS!

Archaic71
jesterville wrote:

...to be a "flash in the pan" like Fischer's dominating stint for 1 year hardly equals...


Fischer beat Bronstein 1 to 0, with 3 draws.
Fischer beat Stein 1 to 0, with 1 draw.
Fischer beat Larsen 11 to 2, with 1 draw.
Fischer beat Najdorf 4 to 1, with 4 draws.
Fischer beat Paul Keres 4 to 3, with 3 draws.
Fischer beat Petrosian 10 to 4, with 15 draws.
Fischer beat Portisch 4 to 0, with 5 draws.
Fischer beat Smyslov 5 to 1, with 5 draws.
Fischer beat Spassky 17 to 11, with 28 draws
Fischer beat Taimanov 7 to 0, with 1 draw.
Fischer tied Tal 4 to 4, with 5 draws.
Fischer tied Polugaevsky 0 to 0, with 1 draw.
Fischer tied Pachman 2 to 2, with 4 draws.
Fischer tied Korchnoi 3 to 3, with 4 draws.
Fischer tied Mikhail Botvinnik 0 to 0, with 1 draw.
Geller beat Fischer 5 to 3, with 2 draws.

According to chessmetrics.com:

"The player who was ranked #1 most often between 1960 and 1970 was Bobby Fischer, with 54 different months as the top-ranked player (a total of 4.5 years). Next on the list were Tigran Petrosian (2.8 years) and Mikhail Tal (1.9 years)."

"The player who was ranked #1 most often between 1965 and 1975 was Bobby Fischer, with 98 different months as the top-ranked player (a total of 8.2 years). Next on the list were Mikhail Tal (0.6 years) and Boris Spassky (0.5 years)."

"The player who was ranked #1 most often between 1970 and 1980 was Anatoly Karpov, with 65 different months as the top-ranked player (a total of 5.4 years). Next on the list was Bobby Fischer (4.6 years), the only other player to be ranked #1 between 1970 and 1980."

Hardly a flash in the pan . . . the Russians conspired to keep the title away from him for most of the1960s. 

dannyhume

...and Fischer started off 0-4 against Tal before destroying him for the rest of his career.   Tal still rules.  Greatest ever, behind a few others.  I don't think Karpov even beat Tal more than once and Karpov is 15 years younger and the greatest ever +/- 5 spots.  

raul72

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Table deleted by Moderator.

(The formatting corrupted the rest of the thread.)

kco

Great !! you managed to stuff up the webpage.

fabelhaft
Archaic71 wrote:
jesterville wrote:

...to be a "flash in the pan" like Fischer's dominating stint for 1 year hardly equals...


Fischer beat Bronstein 1 to 0, with 3 draws.
Fischer beat Stein 1 to 0, with 1 draw.
Fischer beat Larsen 11 to 2, with 1 draw.
Fischer beat Najdorf 4 to 1, with 4 draws.
Fischer beat Paul Keres 4 to 3, with 3 draws.
Fischer beat Petrosian 10 to 4, with 15 draws.
Fischer beat Portisch 4 to 0, with 5 draws.
Fischer beat Smyslov 5 to 1, with 5 draws.
Fischer beat Spassky 17 to 11, with 28 draws
Fischer beat Taimanov 7 to 0, with 1 draw.
Fischer tied Tal 4 to 4, with 5 draws.
Fischer tied Polugaevsky 0 to 0, with 1 draw.
Fischer tied Pachman 2 to 2, with 4 draws.
Fischer tied Korchnoi 3 to 3, with 4 draws.
Fischer tied Mikhail Botvinnik 0 to 0, with 1 draw.
Geller beat Fischer 5 to 3, with 2 draws.

According to chessmetrics.com:

"The player who was ranked #1 most often between 1960 and 1970 was Bobby Fischer, with 54 different months as the top-ranked player (a total of 4.5 years). Next on the list were Tigran Petrosian (2.8 years) and Mikhail Tal (1.9 years)."

"The player who was ranked #1 most often between 1965 and 1975 was Bobby Fischer, with 98 different months as the top-ranked player (a total of 8.2 years). Next on the list were Mikhail Tal (0.6 years) and Boris Spassky (0.5 years)."

"The player who was ranked #1 most often between 1970 and 1980 was Anatoly Karpov, with 65 different months as the top-ranked player (a total of 5.4 years). Next on the list was Bobby Fischer (4.6 years), the only other player to be ranked #1 between 1970 and 1980."

Hardly a flash in the pan . . . the Russians conspired to keep the title away from him for most of the1960s. 


The Russians hardly needed to conspire to keep the title away from Fischer, no one except Fischer could imagine that he was good enough in 1962 when he was three points or more behind the top three in Curacao. After that he either chose not to play or withdrew. His results were good in the 1960s but not as good as Spassky's. The latter won many candidates matches and a title match and that is more important than Fischer's wins against weaker opposition. Spassky was just better then, had a clear plus against Fischer and won ahead of him in Piatigorsky Cup 1966.

That Fischer was ranked as #1 at Chessmetrics for a couple of years after retiring doesn't say much, but his period as a really dominant player was very short. He obviously didn't dominate Spassky before 1972 since he had a big minus and didn't finish ahead of him in top tournaments either in 1960 and 1966. In 1972 the difference was big though, even if I don't think Fischer threw the first game, he wasn't unbeatable, as Spassky has shown many times before. Obviously one of the greatest, but had he retired two years earlier than he did I don't think anyone could rank him ahead of Spassky. So it's basically just over a year in 1971-72 that can make him comparable to the greatest players, but also without that year he would naturally have been one of the legends of the game, but never mentioned as one of the greatest.

fyy0r
dannyhume wrote:

Karpov (I change my mind).

He came out of nowhere, dominated post-Fischer, pre-Kasparov.  

Would have ruled the chess world for a quarter of a century in the modern era whether or not Fischer beat him in 1975 (he would have swept Kasparov in 1984 and chess history would be vastly different).  

No, can't do it...still gotta go with Capablanca, in spite of overconfidence and hypertension.


Yeah I like Karpov too.  Though I probably wouldn't vote for him in a the "the #1 all time best" list.  I like how Botvinnik when speaking of Karpov said something along the lines of "This boy has no potential", but Karpov eventually threw that in his face.