Why are there so little female chess players?

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kartikeya_tiwari
Soniasthetics wrote:
ldunn84 wrote:
Soniasthetics wrote:
ldunn84 wrote:

As a female chess player that is also in a younger demographic, there aren't many female chess players to represent the community. Therefore, it does make you feel out of sort in many ways as well as unaccepted. It's a bit discouraging in many ways which is why I choose not to talk about my gender online whilst playing chess even though I am in no way an advanced player. I don't really agree with the rating system of having women FIDE masters since this makes it seem like they are incapable of the levels that men can get to. Yet, it's because of how few women actually do play chess. I haven't done much research into this topic, but that's just what I personally believe and feel free to respond! 

where the female champions then?

There's million of females playing chess now a days, they still can't compete with the men. ya'll need to stop shouting and actually prove women can perform equally as good on the board, not on a chess.com forum post. 

U can't use the argument that "women are marginalised in chess" anymore, that excuse don't stick. No one cares, so either women still can't compete cuz there is a biological difference that we aren't ready to accept, or they just somehow never serious 100% of the time while playing. 

 

 

Jeez ok I didn't expect anyone to respond to my post but here we go. I'm simply stating that women are clearly oppressed in chess and even you are a case of that point. It seems as if you are immediately seen as worse due to your gender. Now, is this an excuse- no. But, I'm just saying this is most likely why there are fewer women in the game. Ok, now to speak on the fact that you suggest there are biological differences in men and women regarding their chess playing abilities. You can look at IQ levels. Men's IQ's show that although there are more "geniuses" that are men there are also more men that are on the lower spectrum compared to women. Women are closer to the average where as men are more spread apart. So speaking off of this, there are most likely going to be more male GM but, in terms of not genius level players women should have an equal playing field. That's my argument anyways. Also, seeing your profile, you seem to be a women chess player as well. I would have hoped that you would acknowledge that there is obviously oppression in the women's chess community and it's quite sad to see. I am not just ranting about this on a chess.com forum post, I'm just here to shine light on the issue. 

It's precisely because I'm a woman that I'm telling u ur wrong about women being oppressed in chess. 

I was in my highschool chess club, I was always out at highschool chess tournaments, and I was never oppressed. no one discouraged me. sure all of the kids in my school that played chess were boys, but that wasn't an issue. It shouldn't be. I shouldn't have to be surrounded by other girls to play chess. None of my teachers said I shouldn't play it, no one at tournaments said i was out of place. 

I'm telling u, women aren't oppressed. If anything in todays society, it's men that are oppressed, not women.

 

Massive props to you for saying the truth. 

kartikeya_tiwari
Magnus-GOAT wrote:

 

Well the best way to make someone believe something is to SHOW it.  A guy could think that women are just as good as men in chess(i used to think that) but this is simply not backed up by women themselves. There is 200 to 250 rating point difference between the best female player and the best male player right now. Even judit polgar who is hailed as a legend had a horrible score against the world champions, performed very bad in her candidates matches and was around 100 points lower than the top players for most of her career. Again, where is the proof?

llama47
kartikeya_tiwari wrote:
Magnus-GOAT wrote:

 

Well the best way to make someone believe something is to SHOW it.  A guy could think that women are just as good as men in chess(i used to think that) but this is simply not backed up by women themselves. There is 200 to 250 rating point difference between the best female player and the best male player right now. Even judit polgar who is hailed as a legend had a horrible score against the world champions, performed very bad in her candidates matches and was around 100 points lower than the top players for most of her career. Again, where is the proof?

Sounds like Hikaru... I'm being serious tongue.png

llama47

And these twitch kids think he's so great... ugh.

llama47

But anyway, if you graph the ratings of players aged 20-40 and look at male vs female, they're practicaly identical. There's no 200 point gap on average.

So it's silly to say women are worse at chess.

Pointing at the top 1% of 1% of 1% of players only shows that in the male population there are more outliers. You can explain this through genetics or simple participations rates.

There's nothing inherient about the female brain that makes it less good at chess, and nothing inherient about a male brain that makes it better.

People like to mention visuo-spatial stuff, but they forget chess skill is not at all linked to calculation... listen to a top player after a tournament, they usually give variations only 4, 5, 6 moves deep. It's their super-naturally correct evaluations that matter. Their short variations are accurate.

People post videos of Ivanchuk or Leko analyzing their entire game blindfolded... ok but even some 2000 and weak masters can do that. I've (more or less) done that after a tournament game. If you spend 5 hours looking at a game it's pretty freakin' well baked into your brain at that point.

Checknologist
kartikeya_tiwari wrote:
Soniasthetics wrote:
ldunn84 wrote:
Soniasthetics wrote:
ldunn84 wrote:

As a female chess player that is also in a younger demographic, there aren't many female chess players to represent the community. Therefore, it does make you feel out of sort in many ways as well as unaccepted. It's a bit discouraging in many ways which is why I choose not to talk about my gender online whilst playing chess even though I am in no way an advanced player. I don't really agree with the rating system of having women FIDE masters since this makes it seem like they are incapable of the levels that men can get to. Yet, it's because of how few women actually do play chess. I haven't done much research into this topic, but that's just what I personally believe and feel free to respond! 

where the female champions then?

There's million of females playing chess now a days, they still can't compete with the men. ya'll need to stop shouting and actually prove women can perform equally as good on the board, not on a chess.com forum post. 

U can't use the argument that "women are marginalised in chess" anymore, that excuse don't stick. No one cares, so either women still can't compete cuz there is a biological difference that we aren't ready to accept, or they just somehow never serious 100% of the time while playing. 

 

 

Jeez ok I didn't expect anyone to respond to my post but here we go. I'm simply stating that women are clearly oppressed in chess and even you are a case of that point. It seems as if you are immediately seen as worse due to your gender. Now, is this an excuse- no. But, I'm just saying this is most likely why there are fewer women in the game. Ok, now to speak on the fact that you suggest there are biological differences in men and women regarding their chess playing abilities. You can look at IQ levels. Men's IQ's show that although there are more "geniuses" that are men there are also more men that are on the lower spectrum compared to women. Women are closer to the average where as men are more spread apart. So speaking off of this, there are most likely going to be more male GM but, in terms of not genius level players women should have an equal playing field. That's my argument anyways. Also, seeing your profile, you seem to be a women chess player as well. I would have hoped that you would acknowledge that there is obviously oppression in the women's chess community and it's quite sad to see. I am not just ranting about this on a chess.com forum post, I'm just here to shine light on the issue. 

It's precisely because I'm a woman that I'm telling u ur wrong about women being oppressed in chess. 

I was in my highschool chess club, I was always out at highschool chess tournaments, and I was never oppressed. no one discouraged me. sure all of the kids in my school that played chess were boys, but that wasn't an issue. It shouldn't be. I shouldn't have to be surrounded by other girls to play chess. None of my teachers said I shouldn't play it, no one at tournaments said i was out of place. 

I'm telling u, women aren't oppressed. If anything in todays society, it's men that are oppressed, not women.

 

Massive props to you for saying the truth. 

Don't mean to start anything here, but I disagree. I'm willing to see your side, but please answer these questions:

Why do women get paid less than their counterparts? : https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/03/22/gender-pay-gap-facts/ 

Why are women underrepresented in the government? : https://www.unwomen.org/en/what-we-do/leadership-and-political-participation/facts-and-figures

Why are women the minority in the news media? : https://www.womensmediacenter.com/reports/the-status-of-women-in-u-s-media-2019

Why, when some women enter male-dominated industries, does the pay decrease? : https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/20/upshot/as-women-take-over-a-male-dominated-field-the-pay-drops.html

Why do some female entrepreneurs receive less funding and investments? : https://www.allraise.org/

Why are women in Hollywood not given the same opportunities as men in the industry? : https://www.nyfa.edu/film-school-blog/gender-inequality-in-film-infographic-updated-in-2018/

Why do a lot of female soldiers face harassment and abuse? : https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/new-poll-us-troops-veterans-reveals-thoughts-current-military-policies-180971134/ 

There are so many more questions, but I will stay respectful of your opinion. I just want to show you my point, so I wouldn't like to start anything.

Thanks. 

IsraeliGal

ok you say nothing inherient about the female brain that makes it less good, but that needs to be proven. 

So far not proven. Women aren't getting any closer than say 30 years ago, and that proves something ur not willing to admit. 

said it already but i'll say it again, prove it to us instead of telling us.

 

SarahThePenguin

hi

llama47
Soniasthetics wrote:

ok you say nothing inherient about the female brain that makes it less good, but that needs to be proven. 

So far not proven. Women aren't getting any closer than say 30 years ago, and that proves something ur not willing to admit. 

said it already but i'll say it again, prove it to us instead of telling us.

 

I think graphing FIDE data of male vs female players, and observing they nearly overlap, is a very good indication.

But I don't have those pictures anymore... and the guy who did it (he was a forum member) I don't know how he got access to that data. I think he was a maths student.

So you can call BS on my post, and that's fine... but I'm just saying, this is my argument. Women are not 200 points weaker on average. It's just the male outliers are about 200 points stronger than the female outliers.

SarahThePenguin

I am a female and at first I thought chess was boring but now I'm trying to learn more about it and get better. Maybe females tend to have different kind of interests. 

gr8dayz

All the female chess players I have ever seen have been normal sized. But, that is just my opinion.

IsraeliGal
Aida_Amin wrote:
kartikeya_tiwari wrote:
Soniasthetics wrote:
ldunn84 wrote:
Soniasthetics wrote:
ldunn84 wrote:

As a female chess player that is also in a younger demographic, there aren't many female chess players to represent the community. Therefore, it does make you feel out of sort in many ways as well as unaccepted. It's a bit discouraging in many ways which is why I choose not to talk about my gender online whilst playing chess even though I am in no way an advanced player. I don't really agree with the rating system of having women FIDE masters since this makes it seem like they are incapable of the levels that men can get to. Yet, it's because of how few women actually do play chess. I haven't done much research into this topic, but that's just what I personally believe and feel free to respond! 

where the female champions then?

There's million of females playing chess now a days, they still can't compete with the men. ya'll need to stop shouting and actually prove women can perform equally as good on the board, not on a chess.com forum post. 

U can't use the argument that "women are marginalised in chess" anymore, that excuse don't stick. No one cares, so either women still can't compete cuz there is a biological difference that we aren't ready to accept, or they just somehow never serious 100% of the time while playing. 

 

 

Jeez ok I didn't expect anyone to respond to my post but here we go. I'm simply stating that women are clearly oppressed in chess and even you are a case of that point. It seems as if you are immediately seen as worse due to your gender. Now, is this an excuse- no. But, I'm just saying this is most likely why there are fewer women in the game. Ok, now to speak on the fact that you suggest there are biological differences in men and women regarding their chess playing abilities. You can look at IQ levels. Men's IQ's show that although there are more "geniuses" that are men there are also more men that are on the lower spectrum compared to women. Women are closer to the average where as men are more spread apart. So speaking off of this, there are most likely going to be more male GM but, in terms of not genius level players women should have an equal playing field. That's my argument anyways. Also, seeing your profile, you seem to be a women chess player as well. I would have hoped that you would acknowledge that there is obviously oppression in the women's chess community and it's quite sad to see. I am not just ranting about this on a chess.com forum post, I'm just here to shine light on the issue. 

It's precisely because I'm a woman that I'm telling u ur wrong about women being oppressed in chess. 

I was in my highschool chess club, I was always out at highschool chess tournaments, and I was never oppressed. no one discouraged me. sure all of the kids in my school that played chess were boys, but that wasn't an issue. It shouldn't be. I shouldn't have to be surrounded by other girls to play chess. None of my teachers said I shouldn't play it, no one at tournaments said i was out of place. 

I'm telling u, women aren't oppressed. If anything in todays society, it's men that are oppressed, not women.

 

Massive props to you for saying the truth. 

Don't mean to start anything here, but I disagree. I'm willing to see your side, but please answer these questions:

Why do women get paid less than their counterparts? : https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/03/22/gender-pay-gap-facts/ 

Why are women underrepresented in the government? : https://www.unwomen.org/en/what-we-do/leadership-and-political-participation/facts-and-figures

Why are women the minority in the news media? : https://www.womensmediacenter.com/reports/the-status-of-women-in-u-s-media-2019

Why, when some women enter male-dominated industries, does the pay decrease? : https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/20/upshot/as-women-take-over-a-male-dominated-field-the-pay-drops.html

Why do some female entrepreneurs receive less funding and investments? : https://www.allraise.org/

Why are women in Hollywood not given the same opportunities as men in the industry? : https://www.nyfa.edu/film-school-blog/gender-inequality-in-film-infographic-updated-in-2018/

Why do a lot of female soldiers face harassment and abuse? : https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/new-poll-us-troops-veterans-reveals-thoughts-current-military-policies-180971134/ 

There are so many more questions, but I will stay respectful of your opinion. I just want to show you my point, so I wouldn't like to start anything.

Thanks. 

1. The gender pay gap has been extensively broken down by now. If you do a multi-varied analysis you'll see the pay gap is actually almost identical. Actually women now are payed more between 20-30 years in the US and the UK now. Women get payed less especially later in life because they have kids, they choose occupations that pay less, they don't join stem fields, they don't ask for raises, not as competitive. 

 

2. Women get paid less than their counterparts because they don't perform as well. This is shown brilliantly in sports. It's why the NBA is making millions a year but the WNBA is leaking over 10 million dollars a year. If u underperform compared to ur counterpart, u will be paid less. 

 

3. they are underrepresented in government because politics just isn't a womans thing. It goes back to differences. Men are more prone to worry about the economy, the stability of society, and generating ideas to fix problems. Women are more nurturing, emotional, chaotic. Politics therefore isn't the main idea women will go for, even today when it is completely open for them to do so. 

 

4. Same with the news media. 

 

5. This one goes back to number 1 and 2. 

 

6. Same with this as well. Sorry to say it but if u underperform u won't receive funding, or investments from corporations because the profit will be minimal compared to someone else in ur field. 

 

7. Im not even sure what this one is about. Idk anything about hollywood, but I know actresses are paid very finely for their work, despite it not being essential or useful. 

 

8. Women shouldn't be in the military, plain and simple. Not only is it dangerous, but it is an extremely physical occupation, that requires absolute dedication, focus and commitment. Women are no where near the physical capability of men. the difference between men and womens physical capabilities are so huge that women almost become blind to it and think we are actually competent physically. 

 

Checknologist
Soniasthetics wrote:

ok you say nothing inherient about the female brain that makes it less good, but that needs to be proven. 

So far not proven. Women aren't getting any closer than say 30 years ago, and that proves something ur not willing to admit. 

said it already but i'll say it again, prove it to us instead of telling us.

 

Thanks for replying. You state that women aren't getting closer than they were 30 years ago, but that's not exactly true. They are. "Women's pay has increased substantially from one generation to the next," is what "axios.com" says. 

You also tell me to prove it to you instead of telling you, but I believe I already have: check out the links I posted.

IsraeliGal
Aida_Amin wrote:
Soniasthetics wrote:

ok you say nothing inherient about the female brain that makes it less good, but that needs to be proven. 

So far not proven. Women aren't getting any closer than say 30 years ago, and that proves something ur not willing to admit. 

said it already but i'll say it again, prove it to us instead of telling us.

 

Thanks for replying. You state that women aren't getting closer than they were 30 years ago, but that's not exactly true. They are. "Women's pay has increased substantially from one generation to the next," is what "axios.com" says. 

You also tell me to prove it to you instead of telling you, but I believe I already have: check out the links I posted.

I just made a reply to ur big post. This response was to someone else.. 

The proof u gave in that big post has nothing to do with chess lol. 

 

ezVaish

This is making me feel like there are a lot of good boys  

at chess .

CrusaderKing1
Eucalyptus44 wrote:
As a female player who has taught chess at schools for years, the under-representation of females in the chess world is more to do with the social aspect and nothing to do with innate ability. In general many young boys love the competitive cut and thrust of chess in the primary school, young girls don’t feel so much at home in this rough-and-tumble world! This debate is complex and this is just a preliminary observation!

Wouldn't that argument actually support innate ability? That girls don't like the cut throat approach that chess has to offer? 

kartikeya_tiwari
Magnus-GOAT wrote:

kartikeya_tiwari hat geschrieben:
where is the proof?

People who asking for proof = lol !

Judit Polgar proved it already, she was Top10 of the world, a thing 99.999% of ALL chess-players are not able to ... doesn't matter if women or men !

Your argument about the top players, does not work, because you need to consider that only a few % of the chess players are women, most % are men !
Which is "btw." exactly the TOPIC !

 

No offence but judit polgar is the most overhyped chess player in history. She didn't prove anything, she didn't achieve anything. How many players do you know who were somewhere in the 30s in their rankings with a career best ranking of 8? even if u know those players do you consider them a legend? Hell, look at karjakin. The guy almost took the world title, has a much higher rating, much better and consistent world ranking and yet he is not considered to be a legend of the game... why this double standard?

If you truly, honestly believe that women are just as good as men then measure them on the same exact yardstick. For example vallejo pons had a top rank of 10th, he was the top 10 player at one point in his life. Do you consider him to be a massive legend like you consider judit? use the same yardstick and only then will this talk of "men and women are the same" would be valid

llama47
kartikeya_tiwari wrote:
Magnus-GOAT wrote:

kartikeya_tiwari hat geschrieben:
where is the proof?

People who asking for proof = lol !

Judit Polgar proved it already, she was Top10 of the world, a thing 99.999% of ALL chess-players are not able to ... doesn't matter if women or men !

Your argument about the top players, does not work, because you need to consider that only a few % of the chess players are women, most % are men !
Which is "btw." exactly the TOPIC !

 

No offence but judit polgar is the most overhyped chess player in history. She didn't prove anything, she didn't achieve anything. How many players do you know who were somewhere in the 30s in their rankings with a career best ranking of 8? even if u know those players do you consider them a legend? Hell, look at karjakin. The guy almost took the world title, has a much higher rating, much better and consistent world ranking and yet he is not considered to be a legend of the game... why this double standard?

If you truly, honestly believe that women are just as good as men then measure them on the same exact yardstick. For example vallejo pons had a top rank of 10th, he was the top 10 player at one point in his life. Do you consider him to be a massive legend like you consider judit? use the same yardstick and only then will this talk of "men and women are the same" would be valid

Well... yes it's true she didn't prove anything. One person can't prove anything. I agree.

But you can't ignore the social and psychological impact of a female player being in the top 10. For a lot of people, in their minds, she really did prove something, and that matters. You could make an argument that she's had more impact than Karjakin.

Checknologist
Soniasthetics wrote:

1. The gender pay gap has been extensively broken down by now. If you do a multi-varied analysis you'll see the pay gap is actually almost identical. Actually women now are payed more between 20-30 years in the US and the UK now. Women get payed less especially later in life because they have kids, they choose occupations that pay less, they don't join stem fields, they don't ask for raises, not as competitive. 

2. Women get paid less than their counterparts because they don't perform as well. This is shown brilliantly in sports. It's why the NBA is making millions a year but the WNBA is leaking over 10 million dollars a year. If u underperform compared to ur counterpart, u will be paid less. 

3. they are underrepresented in government because politics just isn't a womans thing. It goes back to differences. Men are more prone to worry about the economy, the stability of society, and generating ideas to fix problems. Women are more nurturing, emotional, chaotic. Politics therefore isn't the main idea women will go for, even today when it is completely open for them to do so. 

4. Same with the news media. 

5. This one goes back to number 1 and 2. 

6. Same with this as well. Sorry to say it but if u underperform u won't receive funding, or investments from corporations because the profit will be minimal compared to someone else in ur field. 

7. Im not even sure what this one is about. Idk anything about hollywood, but I know actresses are paid very finely for their work, despite it not being essential or useful. 

8. Women shouldn't be in the military, plain and simple. Not only is it dangerous, but it is an extremely physical occupation, that requires absolute dedication, focus and commitment. Women are no where near the physical capability of men. the difference between men and womens physical capabilities are so huge that women almost become blind to it and think we are actually competent physically. 

I respect your opinion, but do you have any proof for this? 

1. Again, there is no proof for this. 

2. Do you think that women naturally do less of a good job than men? Does that mean they are less smart? No, but still a lot of women are paid less compared to their men counterparts.

3. I would accept your explanation except for the fact that I believe that there is no proof of that.

4. Again, I would be glad to know what proof you have for this happy.png

5. Same argument for 1 and 2

6. Same as argument 2. (Do women naturally underperform?)

7. There is no proof for this. 

8. Women shouldn't be in the military? What if a woman wants to be in the military? Will she not get the job, even if it is something that she badly wants to do? Isn't that gender discrimination.

Thanks, and again, I respect your opinion very much and do not mean to offend you happy.png

 

Checknologist
Soniasthetics wrote:
Aida_Amin wrote:
Soniasthetics wrote:

ok you say nothing inherient about the female brain that makes it less good, but that needs to be proven. 

So far not proven. Women aren't getting any closer than say 30 years ago, and that proves something ur not willing to admit. 

said it already but i'll say it again, prove it to us instead of telling us.

 

Thanks for replying. You state that women aren't getting closer than they were 30 years ago, but that's not exactly true. They are. "Women's pay has increased substantially from one generation to the next," is what "axios.com" says. 

You also tell me to prove it to you instead of telling you, but I believe I already have: check out the links I posted.

I just made a reply to ur big post. This response was to someone else.. 

The proof u gave in that big post has nothing to do with chess lol. 

 

No, it has nothing to do with chess, but I made a reply to your statement that men are more oppressed then women happy.png.

Thanks, this was a really interesting discussion. Have a good day happy.png

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