Why do high level chess players consistently make really strange looking moves?

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JayeshSinhaChess

There is a diff. Beginners don't know what the rules are so they break them on every move.

Top players not only know the rules but they also know the exceptions to those rules, and hence they break rules every now and then, knowing the exceptions are fine.

Mid range players know the rules, but don't know the exceptions, and hence they follow they rules.

slavista27
Interesting. This is about how I would see the position and moves I would consider playing.  I do understand the basic concepts of strategy but often struggle to apply it to a particular position. I also try to make moves like developing pieces, getting them on active squares, trying to weaken squares of my opponent and apply other general rules.
But I don´t know how to change my thinking stereotypes and get a deeper positional understanding. It would require deeply studying tons of positions and still, I would tend to apply the principles I have found out in wrong situations because of the wrong inductive reasoning. 
 
Deranged wrote:

Well here's how I'd have played it out:

Rocky64

Not all principles are equal - some are more advanced than others. The more advanced principles tend to be more detailed and specific to certain situations, and could override the basic ones. Kallatroh gave such an advanced idea: "Closed positions are of course full of maneuvering." Once you are aware of this idea, you should see that these "strange" moves are in fact following more advanced principles, which on a superficial level seem to contradict basic opening principles of development.

A quick analogy is the basic principle of "don't leave your pieces en prise". Imagine a complete novice who knows this rule coming across a collection of positions showing brilliant sacrifices. This beginner might say, "Why do these top players keep making these strange moves where they leave their pieces unprotected, like beginners?" Obviously sacrifices are a more advanced idea that overrides the en prise principle. 

  

Deranged
blueemu wrote:

Why are you so anxious to trade your GOOD Bishop (on c1) for Black's BAD Bishop (on g7)? Are you expecting to launch a mating attack on the K-side... where Black has more space and more minor pieces already positioned?

I get the impression (perhaps mistakenly) that you just disregard the Pawn formation and try to impose the same general plan on every position...

I don't understand why my c1 bishop is better than black's g7 bishop? If anything, I feel like black's g7 bishop is more important than my c1 bishop because he needs it to defend the dark squares around his king, whereas the white king is safer and doesn't need his DS bishop.

Admittedly I'm not an expert on pawn structure. I'm a tactical player and I usually just always go after my opponent's king, trying to keep the game as open as possible. Is that a bad strategy?

Deranged
Rocky64 wrote:

Not all principles are equal - some are more advanced than others. The more advanced principles tend to be more detailed and specific to certain situations, and could override the basic ones. Kallatroh gave such an advanced idea: "Closed positions are of course full of maneuvering." Once you are aware of this idea, you should see that these "strange" moves are in fact following more advanced principles, which on a superficial level seem to contradict basic opening principles of development.

A quick analogy is the basic principle of "don't leave your pieces en prise". Imagine a complete novice who knows this rule coming across a collection of positions showing brilliant sacrifices. This beginner might say, "Why do these top players keep making these strange moves where they leave their pieces unprotected, like beginners?" Obviously sacrifices are a more advanced idea that overrides the en prise principle. 

  

Tactics are easier to understand than strategy though. I can understand when a see a grandmaster play a strong tactical move because I can go through the calculation and see how it would play out a different way. But a positional sacrifice, for example, is a lot harder to comprehend than a tactical sacrifice.

BL4D3RUNN3R

Hold my beer.

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1380585

BL4D3RUNN3R

Just read the comments...

Laskersnephew

The sacred "principles" the OP is citing are, in fact, the principles of the open game. Blindly applying them to every opening and pawn formation is a recipe for disaster. It's the kind of thinking that makes less-experienced players put their knights on c3 and c6 in queen-pawn openings and to develop all their pieces in front of their pawns in closed positions, leaving them to suffocate from the lack of pawn breaks. 

When two players do the same thing, it isn't the same! The beginner plays ...Nh5 for a one-move attack on an enemy bishop; the master plays ...Nh5 to maneuver his knight to f4, or to clear the way for a vital f5 break. One player is violating chess principles by putting a knight on the rim, the other is carrying out a logical plan

DaniilKalabukhov

No, great players never break opening principles or strategy principles (call them how you what). In this position form the classic variation of King's Indian:

 

White plays 9. b4!? because he doen't really have a good square for his dark-squared bishop. That means that White wants to hold his dark-squared bishop untill White can find a good square for it. Also the main ideas of this opening are:

1) White attacks at the Queen's side

2) Black attacks at the King's side

So White doesn't want to waste his time and starts to advance his pawns.

The move 9. Bg5 is a dubious move, because it helps Black to avance his King's side pawns by 9... h6!. Black attacks the bishop and gains a tempo.

Also the move 9. Be3 isn't a good one, because of 9... Ng4! - winning a tempo for playing 10... f5! next move.

Of course 9. Bd2? is a bad move - at d2 square the bishop doesn't have "a future" - he is really akwardly placed there.

DaniilKalabukhov
Laskersnephew wrote:

The sacred "principles" the OP is citing are, in fact, the principles of the open game. Blindly applying them to every opening and pawn formation is a recipe for disaster. It's the kind of thinking that makes less-experienced players put their knights on c3 and c6 in queen-pawn openings and to develop all their pieces in front of their pawns in closed positions, leaving them to suffocate from the lack of pawn breaks. 

When two players do the same thing, it isn't the same! The beginner plays ...Nh5 for a one-move attack on an enemy bishop; the master plays ...Nh5 to maneuver his knight to f4, or to clear the way for a vital f5 break. One player is violating chess principles by putting a knight on the rim, the other is carrying out a logical plan

 

The "principles" are the same for the every type of openings. But in a certain game one can "break" them "only visually", but technically he follows them:

 

drmrboss
Deranged wrote:

I don't understand why we want to expand on the queenside. Why does it matter which way our pawns are "facing"? Why can't white attempt a pawn break with f4 and why can't black attempt a pawn break with c6?

Of course , you can!

There are variations where black and white players play like your strat!

Well, after "c6" from black, black simply dont stop white's queen side push,  cxd5 from black, cxd5 leads to free "c" file for white, black can counter play on "c" file but white has more space on white advanced pawn on d5, white is better to play. Or dxc6 leads to permanent backward  d6 pawn on "d"file.

White can play Ne1, Nd3 ,( cause you two tempo) and then "f4" give white nothing, exf4 by black free file for DSB and Kt post on "e5". Those variation has Ne1,Nd3,f3 only.

 

All moves have benefits and disadvantages, books have been written cos people had analyzed  those positions for decades(computer analyzed for millions of moves) and  they choose better variations in the books.

It takes months to years to build a strong opening repertoire but a well prepared opening can increase your elo up to +100.

Squishey

The position he shown is typical of a KID pawn structure, black's chances lie in the f5-f4 break and white's chances lie in the c4-c5 break and put pressure on c7. You will end up learning this after looking through many games in this structure. White has more space on the queenside to put pieces on and a clear target on c7. Sure, white can attempt a pawn break with f4, but I don't think it will work out well in his favour, because he would create a target on e4 and a hole on e5 and he doesn't really have chance to create an attack there. Furthermore, he would strengthen black's bishop on g7 by opening the diagonal completely. I'm sure you can search chess databases in this line where white tried f4 push and see how they fare, I'm sure it's less successful than the c5 plan. Similarly, c6 by black will only serve to weaken d6 oncedxc6. It will only further hasten white's chance on the queenside and create holes and targets for white to attack in the centre. You can probably look up games where black tries to do this and see how they fare.

You should get Chessbase or some other chess database where you can research on games being played in a certain position or variation and see why some plans tried in the past don't work and why some do.

GearWound

Opening principles are basic, generic, and exist mostly as guidelines to help beginners who don't yet know what they're doing. "Should I move my queen seven times in a row with no actual purpose in mind?" asks the beginner. "No", suggests the principles, "try developing a piece, instead!"

Once you get past that point, the needs of the position dictate what one should play, and principles don't really factor in anymore.

Looking at that KID game you cited, there are very clear ideas and purposes to the moves you questioned.

Given enough exposure to KID games, you'd start to see the common ideas, and those moves that look so confusing to you now will begin to make more sense. (Kasparov and Fischer are great places to start.)

SeniorPatzer
Squishey wrote:
Deranged wrote:

So 2 things I still don't get:

1) Why is it that they arrive at so many positions such that awkward moves are considered superior to principled moves? I thought that the reason a move was considered a principle move was because it was the correct move in >95% of cases, and that awkward moves were only correct in <5% of cases, hence why we're taught to follow principles. But it seems that they're making awkward moves more often than not. If awkward moves are correct so often, then why are we even taught principles in the first place?

2) The whole "move x accomplishes y" doesn't make sense to me. Literally every move in chess accomplishes something. Even if I play an awkward move like 1. f3, I could list a bunch of things that that move accomplishes. So when a titled player tries to annotate a game by saying "this move accomplishes these things...", it's like yeah, I get it that those things are accomplished, but what makes those things more important than other things? For example, why is it more important to take a tiny bit more space on the queenside than it is to get piece activity? Why is it more important to perform a 3 move knight maneuvre than it is to develop 3 pieces? What makes an awkward move superior to a non-awkward move, when both moves accomplish different things? No one ever tells me this. They just say "this move accomplishes x, y and z", but they never bother to explain why x, y and z is more important than a, b and c.

 

1) It's a matter of style. Alot of strong players choose to play complicated and sharp positions which requires deep calculation and concrete variations rather than relying on general intuition. Alot of times these strong players have to be quite creative or do something counterintuitive in order to solve a problem. Weaker players lack that creativity or experience, so they need decent generalised principles to guide them for a while until they get strong enough to arrive at their own solutions. Think of principles as training wheels to rely on for a while.

2) It all comes down to concreteness again. Because mainly the strong players see further ahead, calculated more variation or studied the position in depth so he might know that some goals are more important than others. For example, there might be a position where having a strong central knight outpost might not lead to anything, so the strong players find another more awkward move which offers more chances, and he knows this based on experience or prior study of the line/position.

 

Once again, chess is very concrete, each situations should be treated uniquely. If you want to play more "classically principled" positions, try and study some of Capablanca's or Carlsen's games. They prefer more simple positons, and thus their chess is flowing and harmonious.

 

Awesome explanation which helps clear away the fog.  Thanks!

Laskersnephew

In the Evan's Gambit, the position is wide open, with plenty of open lines. You need to get your pieces out quickly and your king to safety, or you will die!

In the Classic Kings Indian, the lines are closed and the pawn structures locked. You need to arrange for favorable pawn breaks in order to activate your pieces. If you quickly "develop" your minor pieces in front of your pawns, you will choke to death.!

Different structures, different principles take precedence. It's not that complicated

Deranged
BL4D3RUNN3R wrote:

This game is exactly what I'm talking about!

llamonade
Deranged wrote:

Well here's how I'd have played it out:

 

Half those moves are pretty bad.

Starting with something basic, I'll point out that while f5 is a common pawn break, it's often prepared by covering g5 so there won't be any Ng5-e6 type ideas. In other words h6 is a common prep move for f5.

In any case, 1.Bg5 isn't terrible, but if your only reasoning is "connect the rooks" then you're playing like a beginner tongue.png Particularly in a closed position, there's no reason to rush to connect the rooks. For attacking the bishop is often good on c1 (maybe not so much in this position, but still), you can often save time by leaving it there for quite some time.

llamonade
Deranged wrote:

I don't understand why we want to expand on the queenside. Why does it matter which way our pawns are "facing"? Why can't white attempt a pawn break with f4 and why can't black attempt a pawn break with c6?

You can think of having more territory as has having a higher probability your pieces will find a useful job. It's directly related to piece activity. In all sorts of openings it's basic strategy to seek play where you have more territory and or more pieces. That's where the "attack in the direction your pawns point" rule of thumb comes from.

llamonade
Squishey wrote:

It's because the really strong players know how to think concretely and calculate alot deeper and know where the pieces should go depending on the plan. This is often a result of prior preparation or deep position understanding. For example, they might undevelop a piece because they see the piece have no prospect in that particular position being on that "normal looking square", so they look for another plan with the piece and found a subtle one.

To put it simply, they just understand chess deeper, calculate deeper and see further and they have reasons justifying the principle breaking moves which is unique to each specific position.

Great answer IMO.

Not only can a player's deep knowledge or experience lead them to play moves that look strange to others, but concrete calculation often has that effect too. Strong players do both, so sometimes their moves will be mysterious.

BL4D3RUNN3R

The given game feels like watching a car accident with the worst hang-over ever. Each time I become sick replaying it.