Why does white always move first, isn't this giving white an unfair advantage?

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PissedOffPawn

9/10 so many people bit.

sapientdust

Maybe they should just flip a coin to see who moves first. And then flip a coin to see who moves next. And flip again to see who moves next. And so on. That would surely be very fair, and sometimes a player would get a few moves in a row, so opening theory would be obsolete.

Or perhaps White gets half a move, and then Black gets a full move, and then White gets three quarters of a move, and Black gets half a move, etc.

Personally, I like the idea of the two sides moving simultaneously, as what could be more fair than that?

Ah_Vignette

Or just whoever moves quicker. That way it is fair. Just move pieces with two hands.

Ellie47

It's not racism it's politics!  Why are we allowing ourselves to be dictated to? Surely we can put our heads together and come up with a fair way of starting the game, I like the flipping the coin idea.  That way is much, much more fair.  You can't argue with a coin, it's just your good luck if you get an extra couple of moves if the coin outcome is in your favour.  I hate being told what to do and what not to do.  Let's be inventive and make up some new rules, so long as they are reasonable and fair, that's what counts in the long run.  Not some dusty old cleric saying back in the 19C ... over the top of his glasses, "white starts!" Hey, we don't have to buy it, this is the 21C we can be creative and think of a better way to open the game!

kleelof
Ellie47 wrote:

It's not racism it's politics!  Why are we allowing ourselves to be dictated to? Surely we can put our heads together and come up with a fair way of starting the game, I like the flipping the coin idea.  That way is much, much more fair.  You can't argue with a coin, it's just your good luck if you get an extra couple of moves if the coin outcome is in your favour.  I hate being told what to do and what not to do.  Let's be inventive and make up some new rules, so long as they are reasonable and fair, that's what counts in the long run.  Not some dusty old cleric saying back in the 19C ... over the top of his glasses, "white starts!" Hey, we don't have to buy it, this is the 21C we can be creative and think of a better way to open the game!

Actually, who gets white is already randomly decided. So, instead of choosing which color goes first, you are choosing who gets to play white. Essentially, it is the same thing.

IronSteintz

I don't think the Queen should have so much power, while the King can barely get around. The King would be much tougher to corner if he had more mobility. And why are there Bishops, did the Catholic Church have a hand in this too? 

kleelof
capablanca2014 wrote:

did the Catholic church have a hand in this too? 

I think if they had, instead of bishops, they would have choir boys.

batgirl
qbsuperstar03 wrote:

Isn't algebraic notation a fairly recent innovation as well?

Is circa 1740 recent?

batgirl

I really matters not at all about color. Someone has to go first and what color pieces that person has is irrelevant.  However, for a variety of reasons, it's just easier if the first person moving is always said to have White.

kleelof
qbsuperstar03 wrote:

Isn't algebraic notation a fairly recent innovation as well?

Sorta.

Before that, their move cards looked like this:

The horsie next to the bishop on the light square takes the pawn behind the rook to the left of the queen.

Needless to say, it really helped speed-up play.

batgirl
Ellie47 wrote:

Let's be inventive and make up some new rules, so long as they are reasonable and fair, that's what counts in the long run.  N

It's done all the time. They're called Variants.

batgirl
kleelof wrote:
qbsuperstar03 wrote:

Isn't algebraic notation a fairly recent innovation as well?

Sorta.

Before that, their move cards looked like this:

The horsie next to the bishop on the light square takes the pawn behind the rook to the left of the queen.

Needless to say, it really helped speed-up play.

That's not far from the truth.  Around 1737 Stamma introduced algebraic in a form that's usable today.  At that same time descriptive  was developed to pretty much the level you describe. Oddly, descriptive became adopted (and improved) in places like France and England, while places like Russia and Germany used algebraic exclusively.

kleelof
batgirl wrote:
kleelof wrote:
qbsuperstar03 wrote:

Isn't algebraic notation a fairly recent innovation as well?

Sorta.

Before that, their move cards looked like this:

The horsie next to the bishop on the light square takes the pawn behind the rook to the left of the queen.

Needless to say, it really helped speed-up play.

That's not far from the truth.  Around 1737 Stamma introduced algebraic in a form that's usable today.  At that same time descriptive  was developed to pretty much the level you describe. Oddly, descriptive became adopted (and improved) in places like France and England, while places like Russia and Germany used algebraic exclusively.

Yeah. Those French and English can be real sentimental and resistant to change.

batgirl
tkbunny wrote:

hence german efficiency

I think it's indicative.

Ellie47

That's what makes us so lovable.  Being resistant to change.  We preserve the past and our heritage.  But also we can be very creative too, we and the French came up with the most spectacular aircraft ever created the Concorde!

LoekBergman

How I have learned it is that when peopled started the game in the old days, it was not set which color should start first. The player that started the game was also the player that could choose the color. People tended to prefer to start playing with black, because they found that the black pieces are more beautiful.

In the immortal game for instance was Anderssen playing with the black pieces, altough he made the first move. I have always understood that the reason that white starts the game is to compensate that color for not being the preferred color to play with.

Conclusion: white is allowed to start the game to make the choice of playing white or black more equal. :-)

FideiDefensor
Ellie47 wrote:

I don't really know much about ball games, but I do have a strong sense of fair play.  Why was the rule changed in the 19C anyway?  It must have been discussed at the time and maybe the person saying "ok from now on white moves first!" may have played better with white, had he played better with black he may have said "ok from now on black starts first!"

The person who goes first goes first; isn't that an unfair advantage? Both players should instead go at the same time - go away and play a different game that's less unfaaaaaaaair.

Elubas

People don't seem to mention often enough when the white player was actually black. I felt like I vaguely remembered times where a person did make that clear, but it's very foggy. You don't even have to change the notation -- just substitute the position of the white pieces with the black ones! I don't know, when studying games I tend to visualize the player of the game actually using white pieces or actually using black pieces when the game was originally played in 1862, 1968, 1977, or whatever year it is, so you would think some information on who actually played white/black would be worth including for most people!

Elubas

"In the immortal game for instance was Anderssen playing with the black pieces, altough he made the first move. I have always understood that the reason that white starts the game is to compensate that color for not being the preferred color to play with."

Both the evergreen and immortal game were played by Anderssen, right? I can never remember which one is which.

Anyway, that's an interesting story for sure, Loek.

Elubas
batgirl wrote:

I really matters not at all about color. Someone has to go first and what color pieces that person has is irrelevant.  However, for a variety of reasons, it's just easier if the first person moving is always said to have White.

Yeah, just more convenient. For example you can know who went first in some ongoing game just by looking at the colors.