Why is there no backlash to Carlsen's accusation?

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Avatar of llama
DeirdreSkye wrote:
Telestu wrote:

@deirdreskye

So they found a way for white to kill the game. So what? There are lots of those.

It was MVL's fault to play that way, he had white and made those decisions.

Carlsen could have avoided it by purposefully giving himself a near-losing (or lost) position, but that would have been dumb.

Carlsen could have acted like this was a must win game, and gone for a difficult position from move 1, but it wasn't a must win game, plus he has a WCC match coming up. He should save any good desperation-with-black ideas for then.

 

It is really amazing that no one accuses Carlsen. He can do anything he wants and gets away with it.

MVL'S fault?Yeah sure. MVL's fault indeed. Carlsen is just a kid that was lured in the pre-analysed draw. He could do nothing to avoid it.

I'm overselling the MVL killed the game thing, but ok, lets get specific.

I'm familiar with the position up to 9.Nc3. That's been played for a number of years. After that I'm not sure though. Maybe you want to criticize developing the bishop to e6? I guess. But what seemed really stale to me was white's 11.b4. To me that seems to make the position super boring. White's not even trying for an advantage.

And then, of course, the whole Bg5-d2 thing. That was initiated by MVL.

The fact remains :When you accuse others that they draw without playing , you can't play pre-analysed lines with your friend because that is also  "draw without playing".

What are you talking about? He never said he doesn't go for a draw as black. All top players do this regularly.

     If Karjakin called Mamedyarov in his room to analyse some lines and the next day they drew their game with a line they analysed the previous night , would that be ok? It would be exactly what Carlsen and MVL did , no?

Maybe you misunderstand analyzed together. Analysis isn't agreeing to play moves, and it's not agreeing to the result of the game beforehand, it's just agreeing about the evaluation.

 

No one even takes into consideration that Mamedyarov maybe was in pain and Karjaking probably politely accepted to give him the draw. Something ALL of us would do. I would never play to win against someone that is sick or in pain , would you?

What does that have to do with it? The fact that Mame has done it in the past isn't the point, and no one is claiming he definitely did it in Norway. The point you're trying to make is that Carlsen is a hypocrite, but you have no proof that he's done prearranged draws, only used analysis to play for a draw with black (which everyone has done for at least 100 years...)

   

 

Avatar of fabelhaft

"The truth is , he is no better than all else"

This is a common conclusion, but I think that is to exaggerate quite a bit. Carlsen played a quick draw against MVL = he is no better than all else. 

My impression is that Carlsen is much less prone to quick draws than the other top players, and not particularly prone to play the sort of games for example Mamedyarov and Radjabov have played every time they have faced each other the last decade.

"Playing pre-analysed lines that lead to a forced draw with your friend is almost equivalent, if not exactly the same, with preagreeing draw"

How does the opening lead to a forced draw? The position is in no way a forced draw, both players could have deviated if they had wanted to. All engines give white the advantage, but he preferred to go for the draw. Carlsen could have deviated but preferred to play the best move. Such things happen.

Avatar of llama
DeirdreSkye wrote:

 I want to note again that I don't have problem with draws either pre-arranged  before the game or arranged during the game.

I think pre-arranged draws are bullshit, so I disagree with you.

But those of you who have a problem with pre-arranged , you must have a problem, with all kind of non-playing draws.

False equivalence.

Nakamura has made many theoretical draws so does Aronian and others(playing Marshall is an invitation to draw anyway).

The Marshall is a tacit draw offer? Someone should tell Aronian. I guess you know better than him.

But it is different to play for a draw and very different to play lines pre-analysed lines to a draw.

Maybe you think chess is a game with only amateurs, but you're wrong. ALL lines are pre-analyzed, pre-arranged draw or otherwise.

In the first case you don't know what your opponent is going to play, in the second case you know. 2 players following a specific script that together examined is not chess anymore.

 But you think it is. Very well!    

You misunderstand the difference, but it is very simple, so you're either acting stupid or it is not an act.

   Let's assume Mamedyarov and Karjakin are again in a tournament. Mamedyarov invites Karjakin in his room to show him a line.They analyse a line to the draw and the next day they play this line and they draw. Is that ok with you?

Depends on the tournament situation, but in general, yes, because it wasn't prearragned, and because NO ONE uses their rivals for analysis. Everyone uses seconds and engines and their own knowledge of the game.

    Because if it is,  problem solved. There won't be pre-arranged draws ever again.There will be only arranged draws or "strategic draws".

Oh, so you do understand the difference?

    Of course it's not the solution to the "problem"(if we assume a problem indeed exists) , it's the same problem with a different name and you will find no thinking person agreeing with that.Unless he is Carlsen's fan.

I'm not a fan of anyone (or anything). Chess players politics, or otherwise. You're all a bunch of idiots to me. It would save me trouble if you all keep that in mind.

 

Avatar of llama

Bottom line: you say Carlsen is a hypocrite with zero evidence.

Avatar of DOD6666

Isn't it technically legal to offer a draw on the first move? If so, why would people even bother to play through a game if they had decided in advance to draw it?

Avatar of llama
DOD6666 wrote:

Isn't it technically legal to offer a draw on the first move? If so, why would people even bother to play through a game if they had decided in advance to draw it?

Because knowledge is useful, and so depriving their competitors of knowledge, no matter how small, makes sense.

Avatar of fabelhaft

My impression is that most people discussing these things the last week have as their starting point that they dislike Carlsen :-) Nothing wrong with that, but he played one (of all the numerous) lines he once had analysed with MVL. It doesn't lead to a forced draw in any possible way, but gives white a minor advantage and many possible continuations. MVL chose to invite a repetition. Carlsen could avoid it and take more risks, or choose to take the draw. He chose the latter, given the tournament situation. 

These situations of course occur quite often, especially in last rounds. Carlsen chose to go for a quick draw with white in the last round against Ding Liren in Gashimov Memorial less than two months ago. The players didn't spend many minutes before that game was over, the result being that Carlsen won the tournament. Ding Liren liked to get an easy draw with black against Carlsen, and wasn't interested in taking any risks. If this is "the same problem with a different name and you will find no thinking person agreeing with that. Unless he is Carlsen's fan" or something else than pre-agreed draws will probably depend on your opinion on Carlsen (and Carlsen's fan). There are of course also examples of Carlsen only needing a draw in the last round, but getting a position where he preferred to play for the win and win (against Aronian in Sinquefield Cup 2013).

But to me there is a difference between strategic draws in last rounds, occurring based on tournament considerations, and "general" pre-agreed draws. I think most people just get furious by short draws, regardless the circumstances. I recall when Morozevich won Biel 2006. He had played some incredible chess, scored 7 wins and 2 losses in 9 rounds and had already won the event. Then, when he accepted a draw offer after 10 moves as black in the last round, people were furious and he was shameful, criminal, no better than the worst quick drawers in the world etc etc. The previous nine games? Forgotten :-)

Avatar of fabelhaft

If you play black and are slightly worse in the last round, and think a draw might be enough to get the desired final result of the tournament, you often prefer to take the draw if white doesn't want to play for more. This happens in more or less every last round in every tournament. That has nothing to do with being a fan or not. Then people can keep posting about how players like Carlsen is the death of chess, that they really dislike him, that they are disappointed that he isn't criticised more etc, but that's just how it is. As shown also by his last round game against Ding Liren in Gashimov Memorial.

Now, when specifically asked about the Mamedyarov game in question, he said that he had no proof whatsoever but wouldn't be surprised if the game was pre-arranged. (Which I said probably was to be a bit too blunt, by the way. I don't think it's a good idea to say such things in general, even if I have somewhat less sympathy for Mamedyarov since he not only has admitted to pre-agreed draws but also repeatedly accused Kurnosov of being a cheater.) Carlsen said that Gashimov Memorial had been boring in the way that so many of the participants systematically went for these non-games in every round. That event has been a bit dull sometimes since it always contains a few players that always draw each other, not based on some last round strategy, but because they always do (as admitted by Mamedyarov). What Carlsen said about Shamkir and possibly pre-arranged draws:

"When you get one in the course of an event – if there was one here – I wouldn’t call it a catastrophe, but in Azerbaijan where there a good many such games, I don’t think that’s much fun"

Avatar of James_Drummond

6.6 Where it is clear results have been arranged (E.I.01A.11.1), the CA shall impose suitable penalties (E.I.01A.12).

https://fide.com/FIDE/handbook/Competition_Rules.pdf

Avatar of fabelhaft

"Carlsen admitted in the "confession box" that he studied this position before and decided to go for it to get a quick draw"

What Carlsen did say was this:

"Hi, we're now in a bit of an uncomfortable situation, that I'm sitting here playing a variant (chuckles) that we prepared for the World Championship match in 2016, and back then Maxine was one of main people who worked on exactly this, so... Given that, it surprised me a little that he wanted to go for this, since I bet we have much of the same knowledge about this variant. But he probably has some kind of idea, but we'll see (shrugs). I'm not overly worried, because it's a type of variant that's relatively boring and there isn't very much that can go wrong. But we'll see what he comes up with, anyway it's a fun opening choice in one way, at least"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dUedAdFFa0