With Best Play for both sides Chess is a Draw--So Why Do We Play?

There are machines that can lift much heavier weights than humans. Even the best human won't lift as much as a forklift truck. So why do humans still train weightlifting ?

Because it isn't solved yet.

You are a gold member...go to the opening explorer play some opening like the sodium attack.

(1.Na3 named because Na is sodium probably)

It is a dumb opening but just look at the number of games played.

exactly 5.

This isn't an optimal oppening of course but there are a lot more openings.

Many good opening aren't popular just because some are better. 

Chess is fun because it hasn't been solved yet.

It is immpossible to play perfect chess.

Sometimes even decent chess is not enough.You don't need to try something different to be put on the backfoot.

Logically......all things being equal, the first move should determine the winner.....as in checkers.

With perfect play from both sides in a soccer match, it's a draw - So why do we play? Because it's not always a draw. There's a battle going on here, pitting people's skills against each other. Playing soccer, or chess, against an inhumanly perfect and infallible opponent is futile as it should be because the opponent deserves the win - What's your point?

This poses the question, can one be perfect and still fail?

- It is pretty well known that with neither side making an error-chess is a draw.

- Yes, chess with perfect play by both sides ends in a draw.  

- With best play from both sides in anything, a draw would result. Think about it.

All ridiculous statements.  

Any game that is designed to have somebody go first has to deal with an imbalance, so no, a draw would not result by default with perfect play.  Think about it ;).  

Why do you think tennis has tiebreakers that require one player to win by 2 points?  To combat the very real and significant advantage of serving first.  If two "perfect" tennis players play, the one that wins the coin toss and serves first in set 1 wins the match, because every serve is an ace, and one player gets to serve 1 more time than the other in the end.  

Whether a game is won, lost, or drawn with perfect play by the first player is entirely up to the game's design.  The more complex a game, the harder it is to design it such that it is drawn with perfect play by both players.  Tic-tac-toe is always drawn with perfect play...name some other examples.

As for asserting that chess itself is a draw with perfect play from both sides?  Not even remotely close to a proof yet...

We only have tablebases of 6 men endgames... to solve chess we need a 32 me tablebase...

It has NOT been proven that with best play by both sides, chess is a draw!

It might prove to be a first person win.
It might also prove to be a second person win!
Or yes, it might be proven to be a draw.

So far, members jaas and btickler are the only ones who corrected this false statement.  (Good work.)   And members ponz111, Bmeck, and Mandy711 all said jaas was wrong. 

Sorry, he is not wrong.  You three don't seem to understand.  It hasn't been proven that chess is a draw with proper play on both sides.

In some chess positions, for example, the player on move LOSES.  It's very possible (but unlikely, I agree) that this extends all the way to the OPENING position!

In the game of Connect 4, for example (6x7) it has been prove a first-player win, with best play for both sides.  Some other games (Chopsticks, Sim) the second player wins with best play.

It's been known in the 8x8 Connect Four community that the second player probably has a forced win, with correct play.  (There are very, very few draws in 8x8 Connect Four, and the second player wins much more often than the first player.)

This entire wikipedia page talks about the opening move in chess, and its advantages (and disadvantages) but nowhere on this page does it state that with perfect play the game is drawn.  This is all still conjecture.

Another page worth reading.

But yes, that being said, I will submit that it is very, very likely that if the game of chess is ever solved, it will be determined the game is a draw with proper play.  But none of us in our lifetime will be around to know that for sure.  We'll all be long, long dead by that time.

You could say exactly the same thing about most sports and games. So like you say, why bother?

Checkers and tic tac toe there is a player who moves first but both have been 100% proven to be a draw.

This is because the advantage of the first move is not sufficient to win in both games.

There is no 100% proof that chess is a draw but there is enough circumstantial evidence so that the people most proficient in chess

[masters and above] are almost all sure chess is a draw with best play on both sides.

I agree chess has not been proven 100% sure to be a draw. This is because it is so complex.  However circumstantial evidence convinces the best players, [the large majority of players rated master or above] that chess is a draw with best play.

Mredcollins and btickler I do not believe you understand what perfect play means... For the tennis analogy, it will simply be volleyed. Once an ace happens, one player is no longer perfect. Think about it like this, a perfect game in baseball... what would happen if both pitchers pitched perfect games, theoretically the game would go on forever( saying the pitchers could pitch forever) and that is a draw. A decisive outcome cannot come from both sides being perfect. 

Perfect and best have two different meanings...

Are all positions in chess960 a draw? Although black and white have the same starting position, does this imply that all positions are a draw?

When normal chess is proven to be a draw, we can just switch to one of the other 959 positions and continu playing. :-)

Mredcollins and btickler I do not believe you understand what perfect play means... For the tennis analogy, it will simply be volleyed. Once an ace happens, one player is no longer perfect. Think about it like this, a perfect game in baseball... what would happen if both pitchers pitched perfect games, theoretically the game would go on forever( saying the pitchers could pitch forever) and that is a draw. A decisive outcome cannot come from both sides being perfect. 

You are not correct.  An ace cannot be returned, and the game is designed that way.  If a player makes a perfect serve, it's a point every time, because even if the other player lays a racket on it, their return is so weak that the follow on wins anyway.  If players ever evolved (or juiced up) such that players could return aces effectively, they would widen the court...because nobody wants to see endless volleying.

Your mistake is in defining "perfect play" as meaning each player can respond and counter.  That varies by game...maybe you should take a course on game design.  In many games, perfect play by one player means the other player cannot counter effectively.

Tic tac toe is a good example.  It's a forced draw with perfect play.  However, Xs have all the winning chances, and Os are forced to respond perfectly to draw.  Xs do not have to play perfectly and can still draw.  If you tweak the game design, by adding more columns or rows, etc. then you can tip that balance and force a game design where Xs win if played correctly.

You are tying the idea of perfect play to your notion of perfect game design..that all games are designed to allow absolutely even chances for both sides.  It is generally true that this is the goal (who wants to play an uneven game?), but it is rarely if ever achieved. The vast majority (that's a big understatement) of games fall short of this goal, not being able to achieve a balance, and chess may well be one of them.

Your pitching analogy is not equivalent to the tennis analogy, by the way.  Baseball is designed such that a batter can foul off pitches for an infinitely long period (relying on human fatigue as a sure measure that a pitcher will eventually fold), the exact opposite of the tennis "ace" mechanic.  Tennis is designed to reward the perfect serve, where baseball is designed to reward the manager's decision of when to bring in a new pitcher.

But if the tennis player lets the ace happen, he is not playing perfect...

If the serve can't be hit back then it can't no matter how perfect he/she is.

unless I am the rubber guy from fantastic 4.

You could say the same of life.  Maybe chess players are existentialists.

If he or she can not return the serve then he/she is not perfect... obviously

On a 5x5 board with Tic Tac Toe rules the first player wins easy by taking the centre. Perfect play from the second player cannot prevent the first player from achieving 3 in a row by his fourth move. Perfect play in Connect Four is a win for the first player.

Games can inherently give an advantage to a player that cannot be overcome with perfect play. In chess white has a slight advantage in practical play so the possibility of perfect play converting the advantage into a win is not impossible even if it is unlikely.