Would it make any difference if Black moved first?

leiph15

XPLAYER, they're not talking about if you reversed the colors of the pieces. Notice you've set up the black pieces as if they're white.

They're talking about a standard setup, but letting black move first instead of white. In such a case, the player to move first would have their king on the left.

r_k_ting
Irontiger wrote:

EDIT: ah, maybe not. Let me amend that to "position is just rotated 180°".

Yes, there are at least 4 ways to obtain the type of positions we're talking about (from the perspective of at least one of the players):

  1. Have the players change seats
  2. Rotate the board 180°
  3. Reflect across vertical and horizontal axes
  4. Reflect across vertical axis and invert colors (of pieces and squares)

1 and 2 are obviously the same. Getting technical, 2 and 3 are equivalent because of a theorem in geometry which says all rotations are equal to two reflections, while 3 and 4 are equivalent because of chessboard geometry.

Geometry is definitely confusing and fascinating at the same time.

r_k_ting
XPLAYERJX wrote:

 As you can see the board is flipped to the black side point of view and because we are looking from that point of view the king has to be on the right hand side.

...

This is up for speculation of course but it seems logical to me

Your diagram is obtained by inverting the colors of the pieces only. Yes, maybe this is what the OP means, but probably not, because this is obviously the same game as chess.

What we've been talking about is different, where it's not obvious that it is indeed still the same game as chess. It leads to bizarre looking positions despite being theoretically the same as well known openings.

leiph15
SHIVAMSRI wrote:

 if black moved first the whole opening theroy would be forgotten and start of new openings be made.

No.

And it's not hard to understand why.

leiph15
SHIVAMSRI wrote:
leiph15 wrote:
SHIVAMSRI wrote:

 if black moved first the whole opening theroy would be forgotten and start of new openings be made.

No.

And it's not hard to understand why.

why?

To evaluate a position (and therefore to create opening theory) what matters is the placement of the pieces relative to each other. If the pieces are red, blue, green, black, or white, doesn't matter.

Set up any position on a board, then with paint and a brush paint the white set black and the black set white. The paint doesn't change the evaluation of the position.

Boydcarts

Just to set my record straight, I was assuming a traditional set up: "White on the right" and "Queen on her color." The only difference was that Black moved first.

BTW, thanks for the intersting replies.

DamonevicSmithlov

From what I've read (on here & other places) black did move first in the past.

r_k_ting
leiph15 wrote:

To evaluate a position (and therefore to create opening theory) what matters is the placement of the pieces relative to each other. If the pieces are red, blue, green, black, or white, doesn't matter.

This is correct. To see how, place a mirror alongside the chessboard, where the clocks usually sit. Look into the mirror, and imagine the colors reversed. You will see you are playing standard chess, and all these positions are well known openings.

kindlestenssoro

thank you for the insights!

KeSetoKaiba

It would make no difference. Each color is just a way to identify each army, while the "position" is identical from either side; the board would just be mirrored. I believe that a specific color to move first was chosen simply to standardize; additionally, having one side always moving first creates opening theory that can be easily referenced. This theory would have existed in the same way if Black moved first, but I couldn't refer to it as Black, as White may have moved first or second. 

The only thing that gives White the advantage is the small factor of beginning with the initiative; however, Black has this same advantage if they move first. The board mirrored 180 degrees would not impact the play at all.

kindlestenssoro
KeSetoKaiba wrote:

It would make no difference. Each color is just a way to identify each army, while the "position" is identical from either side; the board would just be mirrored. I believe that a specific color to move first was chosen simply to standardize; additionally, having one side always moving first creates opening theory that can be easily referenced. This theory would have existed in the same way if Black moved first, but I couldn't refer to it as Black, as White may have moved first or second. 

The only thing that gives White the advantage is the small factor of beginning with the initiative; however, Black has this same advantage if they move first. The board mirrored 180 degrees would not impact the play at all.

agree

kindlestenssoro

https://www.chess.com/pt-BR/clubs/forum/view/semi-australian?page=1

 

kindlestenssoro

https://www.chess.com/news/view/moveforequality-carlsen-giri-battle-against-racism?alert=content

darkunorthodox88

if you are worried about making the game as equal as possible, let one side move first, and let the second player to move have the choice between playing their starting position or their opponents, that way, the first player is incentivized to not take the so called first mover advantage. (this was not my idea, i just dont remember the source, and thought it was quite clever)

batgirl

Colors are moot.

Cheesiepie
kleelof wrote:
boydcarts wrote:

Would the game of chess be any different if Black had the first move? (other than throwing out established opening theory).

Black would win more often.

Not necessarily... I win more as black than I do white