I WANT TO MAKE AN APPEAL! - Chess Forums - Page 2

trysts

Jul 31, 2011

0

#21

It's not a draw, because white's move at 55. was a pawn move.

TadDude

Jul 31, 2011

0

#22

apteryx wrote:

FIDE laws of chess: The game is drawn upon a correct claim by the player having the move, when the same position, for at least the third time (not necessarily by a repetition of moves)

It is repetition of position not repetition of moves that counts.

However according to the FIDE laws, you have to claim before you make your move, could this be why the draw didn't happen?

On this site there is no arbiter so the player makes the move then tries to claim the draw before his opponent spoils the position by making a move.

http://support.chess.com/Knowledgebase/Article/View/40/0/how-do-i-claim-a-draw-in-live-chess

"Once the position has repeated three times, make your move then click on the "Draw" button. This ends the game as a draw."

TadDude

Jul 31, 2011

0

#23

trysts wrote:

It's not a draw, because white's move at 55. was a pawn move.

The position on move 55 repeats on move 59 and 61 as indicated by the OP for a threefold repetition. On the Moves tab click on White moves 55, 59 and 61.

http://www.chess.com/livechess/game.html?id=158247508

furtiveking

Jul 31, 2011

0

#24

This IS a threefold repetition, but, if the black player move his 61st move very fast, and especially if he had a premove for that, then there probably wasn't enough time for the white player to click the draw button. My guess is that this is what happened. The three moves are not what needs to be repeated, only the position.

trysts

Jul 31, 2011

0

#25

TadDude wrote:

trysts wrote:

It's not a draw, because white's move at 55. was a pawn move.

The position on move 55 repeats on move 59 and 61 as indicated by the OP for a threefold repetition. On the Moves tab click on White moves 55, 59 and 61.

http://www.chess.com/livechess/game.html?id=158247508

It's the position without any of the prior moves being a pawn move or capture. White's move at 55. was a pawn move, therefore it's the position after black's response to 55., which I believe, would begin the three-fold position. There wasn't a three-fold position simply because a pawn move was part of the claim.

checkmateibeatu

Jul 31, 2011

0

#26

It doesn't matter. The same position occured with the same person to move three times so he should have been able to claim a draw.

TadDude

Jul 31, 2011

0

#27

trysts wrote:

TadDude wrote:

trysts wrote:

It's not a draw, because white's move at 55. was a pawn move.

The position on move 55 repeats on move 59 and 61 as indicated by the OP for a threefold repetition. On the Moves tab click on White moves 55, 59 and 61.

http://www.chess.com/livechess/game.html?id=158247508

It's the position without any of the prior moves being a pawn move or capture. White's move at 55. was a pawn move, therefore it's the position after black's response to 55., which I believe, would begin the three-fold position. There wasn't a three-fold position simply because a pawn move was part of the claim.

I think you are mixing up 4 and 5 as stated here. http://www.chess.com/learn-how-to-play-chess.html#draws

Draws

Occasionally chess games do not end with a winner, but with a draw. There are 5 reasons why a chess game may end in a draw:

The position reaches a stalemate where it is one player’s turn to move, but his king is NOT in check and yet he does not have another legal move
The players may simply agree to a draw and stop playing
There are not enough pieces on the board to force a checkmate (example: a king and a bishop vs. a king)
A player declares a draw if the same exact position is repeated three times (though not necessarily three times in a row)
Fifty consecutive moves have been played where neither player has moved a pawn or captured a piece.

.

ivandh

Jul 31, 2011

0

#28

It's obviously not a draw because the game was played on the even-numbered day of a weekend. I'm surprised so many people have trouble with this.

trysts

Jul 31, 2011

0

#29

TadDude wrote:

trysts wrote:

TadDude wrote:

trysts wrote:

It's not a draw, because white's move at 55. was a pawn move.

The position on move 55 repeats on move 59 and 61 as indicated by the OP for a threefold repetition. On the Moves tab click on White moves 55, 59 and 61.

http://www.chess.com/livechess/game.html?id=158247508

It's the position without any of the prior moves being a pawn move or capture. White's move at 55. was a pawn move, therefore it's the position after black's response to 55., which I believe, would begin the three-fold position. There wasn't a three-fold position simply because a pawn move was part of the claim.

I think you are mixing up 4 and 5 as stated here. http://www.chess.com/learn-how-to-play-chess.html#draws

Draws

Occasionally chess games do not end with a winner, but with a draw. There are 5 reasons why a chess game may end in a draw:

The position reaches a stalemate where it is one player’s turn to move, but his king is NOT in check and yet he does not have another legal move The players may simply agree to a draw and stop playing There are not enough pieces on the board to force a checkmate (example: a king and a bishop vs. a king) A player declares a draw if the same exact position is repeated three times (though not necessarily three times in a row) Fifty consecutive moves have been played where neither player has moved a pawn or captured a piece.

.

The first position was reached after a pawn move, so it doesn't count.

checkmateibeatu

Jul 31, 2011

0

#30

trysts wrote:

TadDude wrote:

trysts wrote:

TadDude wrote:

trysts wrote:

It's not a draw, because white's move at 55. was a pawn move.

The position on move 55 repeats on move 59 and 61 as indicated by the OP for a threefold repetition. On the Moves tab click on White moves 55, 59 and 61.

http://www.chess.com/livechess/game.html?id=158247508

It's the position without any of the prior moves being a pawn move or capture. White's move at 55. was a pawn move, therefore it's the position after black's response to 55., which I believe, would begin the three-fold position. There wasn't a three-fold position simply because a pawn move was part of the claim.

I think you are mixing up 4 and 5 as stated here. http://www.chess.com/learn-how-to-play-chess.html#draws

Draws

Occasionally chess games do not end with a winner, but with a draw. There are 5 reasons why a chess game may end in a draw:

The position reaches a stalemate where it is one player’s turn to move, but his king is NOT in check and yet he does not have another legal move The players may simply agree to a draw and stop playing There are not enough pieces on the board to force a checkmate (example: a king and a bishop vs. a king) A player declares a draw if the same exact position is repeated three times (though not necessarily three times in a row) Fifty consecutive moves have been played where neither player has moved a pawn or captured a piece.

.

The first position was reached after a pawn move, so it doesn't count.

I think you are slightly confusing the three-fold repetition rule with the fifty-move rule.

trysts

Jul 31, 2011

0

#31

checkmateibeatu wrote:

trysts wrote:

TadDude wrote:

trysts wrote:

TadDude wrote:

trysts wrote:

It's not a draw, because white's move at 55. was a pawn move.

The position on move 55 repeats on move 59 and 61 as indicated by the OP for a threefold repetition. On the Moves tab click on White moves 55, 59 and 61.

http://www.chess.com/livechess/game.html?id=158247508

It's the position without any of the prior moves being a pawn move or capture. White's move at 55. was a pawn move, therefore it's the position after black's response to 55., which I believe, would begin the three-fold position. There wasn't a three-fold position simply because a pawn move was part of the claim.

I think you are mixing up 4 and 5 as stated here. http://www.chess.com/learn-how-to-play-chess.html#draws

Draws

Occasionally chess games do not end with a winner, but with a draw. There are 5 reasons why a chess game may end in a draw:

The position reaches a stalemate where it is one player’s turn to move, but his king is NOT in check and yet he does not have another legal move The players may simply agree to a draw and stop playing There are not enough pieces on the board to force a checkmate (example: a king and a bishop vs. a king) A player declares a draw if the same exact position is repeated three times (though not necessarily three times in a row) Fifty consecutive moves have been played where neither player has moved a pawn or captured a piece.

.

The first position was reached after a pawn move, so it doesn't count.

I think you are slightly confusing the three-fold repetition rule with the fifty-move rule.

No. I'm saying the move white made (move 55) to start the repetition of position, was a pawn move, therefore the actual repetition does not begin until black moves.

checkmateibeatu

Jul 31, 2011

0

#32

trysts wrote:

checkmateibeatu wrote:

trysts wrote:

TadDude wrote:

trysts wrote:

TadDude wrote:

trysts wrote:

It's not a draw, because white's move at 55. was a pawn move.

The position on move 55 repeats on move 59 and 61 as indicated by the OP for a threefold repetition. On the Moves tab click on White moves 55, 59 and 61.

http://www.chess.com/livechess/game.html?id=158247508

It's the position without any of the prior moves being a pawn move or capture. White's move at 55. was a pawn move, therefore it's the position after black's response to 55., which I believe, would begin the three-fold position. There wasn't a three-fold position simply because a pawn move was part of the claim.

I think you are mixing up 4 and 5 as stated here. http://www.chess.com/learn-how-to-play-chess.html#draws

Draws

Occasionally chess games do not end with a winner, but with a draw. There are 5 reasons why a chess game may end in a draw:

The position reaches a stalemate where it is one player’s turn to move, but his king is NOT in check and yet he does not have another legal move The players may simply agree to a draw and stop playing There are not enough pieces on the board to force a checkmate (example: a king and a bishop vs. a king) A player declares a draw if the same exact position is repeated three times (though not necessarily three times in a row) Fifty consecutive moves have been played where neither player has moved a pawn or captured a piece.

.

The first position was reached after a pawn move, so it doesn't count.

I think you are slightly confusing the three-fold repetition rule with the fifty-move rule.

No. I'm saying the move white made (move 55) to start the repetition of position, was a pawn move, therefore the actual repetition does not begin until black moves.

checkmateibeatu

Jul 31, 2011

0

#33

My question to the OP is, no offense, but how did you lose on time with a twelve second incriment?

trysts

Jul 31, 2011

0

#34

55... Nb6 starts the repetition. 57... Nb6 makes it two-fold. At move 59, black need only to play 59...Nb6 and it would be three-fold. Instead, black plays 59. Kf7. So black misses his chance to draw by three-fold repetition of position. This all occurs AFTER the pawn move. Pawn moves can't be involved in draws by repetition.

TadDude

Jul 31, 2011

0

#35

trysts wrote:

55... Nb6 starts the repetition. 57... Nb6 makes it two-fold. At move 59, black need only to play 59...Nb6 and it would be three-fold. Instead, black plays 59. Kf7. So black misses his chance to draw by three-fold repetition of position. This all occurs AFTER the pawn move. Pawn moves can't be involved in draws by repetition.

F.I.D.E rules. (Note: Not the same as chess.com rules.)

http://www.fide.com/component/handbook/?id=124&view=article

Article 5: The completion of the game

5.1	a.	The game is won by the player who has checkmated his opponent’s king. This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing the checkmate position was a legal move.
	b.	The game is won by the player whose opponent declares he resigns. This immediately ends the game.
5.2	a.	The game is drawn when the player to move has no legal move and his king is not in check. The game is said to end in ‘stalemate’. This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing the stalemate position was legal.
	b.	The game is drawn when a position has arisen in which neither player can checkmate the opponent’s king with any series of legal moves. The game is said to end in a ‘dead position’. This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing the position was legal. (See Article 9.6)
	c.	The game is drawn upon agreement between the two players during the game. This immediately ends the game. (See Article 9.1)
	d.	The game may be drawn if any identical position is about to appear or has appeared on the chessboard at least three times. (See Article 9.2)
	e.	The game may be drawn if each player has made at least the last 50 consecutive moves without the movement of any pawn and without any capture. (See Article 9.3)

This is what the programmers cannot emulate, so a player claims after the threefold appears not before.

9.2	The game is drawn upon a correct claim by the player having the move, when the same position, for at least the third time (not necessarily by a repetition of moves):
	a.	is about to appear, if he first writes his move on his scoresheet and declares to the arbiter his intention to make this move, or
	b.	has just appeared, and the player claiming the draw has the move.

The threefold repetition rule is pawn free.

trysts

Jul 31, 2011

0

#36

TadDude wrote:

trysts wrote:

55... Nb6 starts the repetition. 57... Nb6 makes it two-fold. At move 59, black need only to play 59...Nb6 and it would be three-fold. Instead, black plays 59. Kf7. So black misses his chance to draw by three-fold repetition of position. This all occurs AFTER the pawn move. Pawn moves can't be involved in draws by repetition.

F.I.D.E rules. (Note: Not the same as chess.com rules.)

http://www.fide.com/component/handbook/?id=124&view=article

Article 5: The completion of the game

5.1

a.

The game is won by the player who has checkmated his opponent’s king. This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing the checkmate position was a legal move.

b.

The game is won by the player whose opponent declares he resigns. This immediately ends the game.

5.2

a.

The game is drawn when the player to move has no legal move and his king is not in check. The game is said to end in ‘stalemate’. This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing the stalemate position was legal.

b.

The game is drawn when a position has arisen in which neither player can checkmate the opponent’s king with any series of legal moves. The game is said to end in a ‘dead position’. This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing the position was legal. (See Article 9.6)

c.

The game is drawn upon agreement between the two players during the game. This immediately ends the game. (See Article 9.1)

d.

The game may be drawn if any identical position is about to appear or has appeared on the chessboard at least three times. (See Article 9.2)

e.

The game may be drawn if each player has made at least the last 50 consecutive moves without the movement of any pawn and without any capture. (See Article 9.3)

This is what the programmers cannot emulate, so a player claims after the threefold appears not before.

9.2

The game is drawn upon a correct claim by the player having the move, when the same position, for at least the third time (not necessarily by a repetition of moves):

a.

is about to appear, if he first writes his move on his scoresheet and declares to the arbiter his intention to make this move, or

b.

has just appeared, and the player claiming the draw has the move.

The threefold repetition rule is pawn free.

The intention of the "three-fold repetition draw", is to discontinue play, because advancement is in peril. The repetition-draws do not involve pawn moves since advancement is being made whenever a pawn moves. A repetition draw would be one where the same pieces have created, or anticipate creating, the same position endlessly. A pawn move, therefore, cannot be apart of that equation. So, in the game we are commenting upon, the three-fold repetition does not begin until AFTER the last advancement.

This is kind of fun discussing 'chess-rule theory'!

furtiveking

Jul 31, 2011

0

#37

trysts wrote:

TadDude wrote:

trysts wrote:

55... Nb6 starts the repetition. 57... Nb6 makes it two-fold. At move 59, black need only to play 59...Nb6 and it would be three-fold. Instead, black plays 59. Kf7. So black misses his chance to draw by three-fold repetition of position. This all occurs AFTER the pawn move. Pawn moves can't be involved in draws by repetition.

F.I.D.E rules. (Note: Not the same as chess.com rules.)

http://www.fide.com/component/handbook/?id=124&view=article

Article 5: The completion of the game

5.1

a.

The game is won by the player who has checkmated his opponent’s king. This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing the checkmate position was a legal move.

b.

The game is won by the player whose opponent declares he resigns. This immediately ends the game.

5.2

a.

The game is drawn when the player to move has no legal move and his king is not in check. The game is said to end in ‘stalemate’. This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing the stalemate position was legal.

b.

The game is drawn when a position has arisen in which neither player can checkmate the opponent’s king with any series of legal moves. The game is said to end in a ‘dead position’. This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing the position was legal. (See Article 9.6)

c.

The game is drawn upon agreement between the two players during the game. This immediately ends the game. (See Article 9.1)

d.

The game may be drawn if any identical position is about to appear or has appeared on the chessboard at least three times. (See Article 9.2)

e.

The game may be drawn if each player has made at least the last 50 consecutive moves without the movement of any pawn and without any capture. (See Article 9.3)

This is what the programmers cannot emulate, so a player claims after the threefold appears not before.

9.2

The game is drawn upon a correct claim by the player having the move, when the same position, for at least the third time (not necessarily by a repetition of moves):

a.

is about to appear, if he first writes his move on his scoresheet and declares to the arbiter his intention to make this move, or

b.

has just appeared, and the player claiming the draw has the move.

The threefold repetition rule is pawn free.

The intention of the "three-fold repetition draw", is to discontinue play, because advancement is in peril. The repetition-draws do not involve pawn moves since advancement is being made whenever a pawn moves. A repetition draw would be one where the same pieces have created, or anticipate creating, the same position endlessly. A pawn move, therefore, cannot be apart of that equation. So, in the game we are commenting upon, the three-fold repetition does not begin until AFTER the last advancement.

This is kind of fun discussing 'chess-rule theory'!

The third repetition rule applies regardless of weather a pawn moved or not. No where in the FIDE rules is an exception given for the three-fold repetition rule and a pawn move (yes, I've read them). Even if advancement is possible (or even likely), a player can still claim the draw.

For the 50-move draw rule however, the 50 move counter is reset after a pawn move (or a capture).

omnipaul

Jul 31, 2011

0

#38

The only time that a pawn move would affect a repetition draw in the way that trysts is suggesting is in the situation where an en passant capture is available the first time. In the OP's game, the move 55. a4 does not allow an en passant capture because there is no black pawn on b4. Remember, with the exception of possible en passant or castling shenanigans, all that matters for a threefold repetition is that the board looks the same at three times and the same player is to move. As was specified in the past in this thread, the probable reason that a draw was not declared was that the OP's opponent made their move too quickly, either through a pre-move or simply making their move quickly, thus breaking the repetition and denying the OP their rightful draw. This is a flaw with the way that repetition (and 50-move) draws work on this site, one that has been brought up in the past. I do not know if the programmers are working to fix this or not.

Skwerly

Jul 31, 2011

0

#39

there was no three move rep there. i went over and over it. relax.

furtiveking

Jul 31, 2011

0

#40

Skwerly wrote:

there was no three move rep there. i went over and over it. relax.

No, not three moves, but, that doesn't matter. The rule is that a player can claim a draw after the POSITION is repeated three times, which DID happen. The OP absolutely had the right to claim the draw, the issue is weather he did, and weather or not he did it in time.