Insufficient material - bishop vs 2 pawns - why this is a draw?

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Avatar of Lagomorph
NowCheckM8 wrote:
Lagomorph wrote:
NowCheckM8 wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:
NowCheckM8 wrote:

That's virtually identical to the one I posted.


Similar. But using only the original pieces.  And no promotions. And a lot less moves. And with only the white king and pawn in the same position. 

I was just asking for someone to show me it was possible and found it was on my own right away anyways. Whether it could be done more quickly or without promotion isn't really relevant. Either way that position is never happening unless white is intentionally trying to be checkmated. Also noone was wondering if it was possible for white to checkmate. That's beyond obvious. The whole point was white ran out of time and whether this should have resulted in a draw or not.

100% I think it should have.

Ok So now you know the difference between FIDE and USCF rules, it is time to move on.

Thanks for the enlightening distinction. I'd have appreciated it a good deal more, though, if it was relevant to the discussion. There are two major problems with your reasoning.

1.) OP was not confused about USCF vs. FIDE. He was unfamiliar with both. You came along to say it was the source of the confusion when in reality it has nothing to do with anything.

2.) Most importantly, this game would have gone to a draw in either format. The process just would have gone differently. The result would have been the same.

So now I will move on. In fact, I had done that two months ago until I noticed this snide remark a few minutes ago. My first instinct was to ignore but then I thought, "This guy is unselfishly offering his wealth of knowledge. I should return the favor and help educate him."

 

You are wrong on all counts.

The OP thought black should win because mate was possible. The distinction between FIDE and chess.com rules is very relevant.

It would have been a win for black under FIDE rules.

You are moving on , but still none the wiser.

 

Avatar of Reef_Drop
Lagomorph wrote:
NowCheckM8 wrote:
Lagomorph wrote:
NowCheckM8 wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:
NowCheckM8 wrote:

That's virtually identical to the one I posted.


Similar. But using only the original pieces.  And no promotions. And a lot less moves. And with only the white king and pawn in the same position. 

I was just asking for someone to show me it was possible and found it was on my own right away anyways. Whether it could be done more quickly or without promotion isn't really relevant. Either way that position is never happening unless white is intentionally trying to be checkmated. Also noone was wondering if it was possible for white to checkmate. That's beyond obvious. The whole point was white ran out of time and whether this should have resulted in a draw or not.

100% I think it should have.

Ok So now you know the difference between FIDE and USCF rules, it is time to move on.

Thanks for the enlightening distinction. I'd have appreciated it a good deal more, though, if it was relevant to the discussion. There are two major problems with your reasoning.

1.) OP was not confused about USCF vs. FIDE. He was unfamiliar with both. You came along to say it was the source of the confusion when in reality it has nothing to do with anything.

2.) Most importantly, this game would have gone to a draw in either format. The process just would have gone differently. The result would have been the same.

So now I will move on. In fact, I had done that two months ago until I noticed this snide remark a few minutes ago. My first instinct was to ignore but then I thought, "This guy is unselfishly offering his wealth of knowledge. I should return the favor and help educate him."

 

You are wrong on all counts.

The OP thought black should win because mate was possible. The distinction between FIDE and chess.com rules is very relevant.

It would have been a win for black under FIDE rules.

You are moving on , but still none the wiser.

 

Well of course lol. Why would I have left this discussion any wiser when the person engaging me is providing no relevant insight?

How is it possible for a person to be confused between two rule-sets when he was familiar with neither of them? If OP had claimed he was accustomed to FIDE rules your comment would have made some sense. Clearly this wasn't the case and your argument was then non-sequitur.

The fundamental issue here is not recognizing what is very obviously a drawn position where black's ONLY winning chances involve black inexplicably allowing white to march his pawns up to promotion when it's easily prevented and then white inexplicably not winning with the promotion.

If this scenario came up in a FIDE game it would have gone one of two ways... either both players are reasonable enough to agree to a draw, or you quickly end up with three-fold repetition which is also a draw. End of story.

I get it, though. Chess is a zero-sum game and by virtue of that many players have personalities that like to treat disagreements the same way. If you want to stubbornly cling to your flawed argument feel free, but don't be so stupid to think anyone but you is buying it.



Avatar of lfPatriotGames

I think there are probably good reasons the rules are they way they are. In this case, it's extremely unlikely black would checkmate. A black checkmate here would require white to make moves so bad, you would have to wonder how he even knows how the pieces move, let alone arrive at this endgame. 

But the rules, apparently, are not about what's likely, or even extremely unlikely. They are about what's possible. Chess is a math problem. So if there is ANY way it can be solved (no matter how unlikely) the rules accomodate that. For all practical purposes black has no way to win, so if white runs out of time, it's a draw. But the mate is still possible, even if it's incredibly impractical. 

I think the reason this rule exists is because not every position is going to appear so impractical or unlikely. At what point, specifically, does it go from an extremely unlikely mate to a very unlikely mate? And at what point does it go from a very unlikely mate to a sort of unlikely mate? And so on. How do we assess something so ambiguous?

Avatar of aidenparadis
NowCheckM8 wrote:
Lagomorph wrote:
NowCheckM8 wrote:
Lagomorph wrote:
NowCheckM8 wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:
NowCheckM8 wrote:

That's virtually identical to the one I posted.


Similar. But using only the original pieces.  And no promotions. And a lot less moves. And with only the white king and pawn in the same position. 

I was just asking for someone to show me it was possible and found it was on my own right away anyways. Whether it could be done more quickly or without promotion isn't really relevant. Either way that position is never happening unless white is intentionally trying to be checkmated. Also noone was wondering if it was possible for white to checkmate. That's beyond obvious. The whole point was white ran out of time and whether this should have resulted in a draw or not.

100% I think it should have.

Ok So now you know the difference between FIDE and USCF rules, it is time to move on.

Thanks for the enlightening distinction. I'd have appreciated it a good deal more, though, if it was relevant to the discussion. There are two major problems with your reasoning.

1.) OP was not confused about USCF vs. FIDE. He was unfamiliar with both. You came along to say it was the source of the confusion when in reality it has nothing to do with anything.

2.) Most importantly, this game would have gone to a draw in either format. The process just would have gone differently. The result would have been the same.

So now I will move on. In fact, I had done that two months ago until I noticed this snide remark a few minutes ago. My first instinct was to ignore but then I thought, "This guy is unselfishly offering his wealth of knowledge. I should return the favor and help educate him."

 

You are wrong on all counts.

The OP thought black should win because mate was possible. The distinction between FIDE and chess.com rules is very relevant.

It would have been a win for black under FIDE rules.

You are moving on , but still none the wiser.

 

Well of course lol. Why would I have left this discussion any wiser when the person engaging me is providing no relevant insight?

How is it possible for a person to be confused between two rule-sets when he was familiar with neither of them? If OP had claimed he was accustomed to FIDE rules your comment would have made some sense. Clearly this wasn't the case and your argument was then non-sequitur.

The fundamental issue here is not recognizing what is very obviously a drawn position where black's ONLY winning chances involve black inexplicably allowing white to march his pawns up to promotion when it's easily prevented and then white inexplicably not winning with the promotion.

If this scenario came up in a FIDE game it would have gone one of two ways... either both players are reasonable enough to agree to a draw, or you quickly end up with three-fold repetition which is also a draw. End of story.

I get it, though. Chess is a zero-sum game and by virtue of that many players have personalities that like to treat disagreements the same way. If you want to stubbornly cling to your flawed argument feel free, but don't be so stupid to think anyone but you is buying it.




Sheesh my guy, you're getting awfully angry at this minor misunderstanding in phrasing. Either way, whether or not it mattered that the OP was confused about the differences or just rules in general, the question was answered. It's not this big of a deal man.

Avatar of lfPatriotGames

There is another possibility too. Which is a little off topic and may run afoul of the rules. 

In this position, lets say it's the last game of a tournament. During the course of this game the rest of the field has finished their games, and as a result, the final standings all come down to how this game ends. At the beginning of this game, white had a small lead in the tournament. Black was tied for second. 

So if white wins the game, he still wins the tournament, but by a point and a half. If black loses, he drops to third. But, if it's a draw, black remains in a tie for second. And if black wins, he gets second alone. 

During the course of the game, nobody knew this. But now that this position occurs, it all comes down to how this position is played out. White has nothing to lose by either winning, losing, or drawing. He is going to win the tournament. But it just so happens white is friends with black in this game. And it also just so happens that the other person who is tied for second smells bad, cheated on his wife, and only got into this tournament because someone else got into a car accident. 

So now that the last 2 hours have decided the placing of the rest of the field, maybe white suddenly has a very good reason to make some very unlikely moves. 

Avatar of aidenparadis
lfPatriotGames wrote:

There is another possibility too. Which is a little off topic and may run afoul of the rules. 

In this position, lets say it's the last game of a tournament. During the course of this game the rest of the field has finished their games, and as a result, the final standings all come down to how this game ends. At the beginning of this game, white had a small lead in the tournament. Black was tied for second. 

So if white wins the game, he still wins the tournament, but by a point and a half. If black loses, he drops to third. But, if it's a draw, black remains in a tie for second. And if black wins, he gets second alone. 

During the course of the game, nobody knew this. But now that this position occurs, it all comes down to how this position is played out. White has nothing to lose by either winning, losing, or drawing. He is going to win the tournament. But it just so happens white is friends with black in this game. And it also just so happens that the other person who is tied for second smells bad, cheated on his wife, and only got into this tournament because someone else got into a car accident. 

So now that the last 2 hours have decided the placing of the rest of the field, maybe white suddenly has a very good reason to make some very unlikely moves. 

I love this example

Avatar of Reef_Drop
lfPatriotGames wrote:

A black checkmate here would require white to make moves so bad, you would have to wonder how he even knows how the pieces move, let alone arrive at this endgame. "

 

I agree, but I'll add too that it would have also required black to make terrible moves as well giving white winning chances he never had to until at the last moment white decides he wants to be checkmated instead and traps himself in a corner. It would require both players moving in a manner no FIDE player ever would OR actively cooperating to achieve that result.

I think the best comment on here came from Madhacker who pointed out that Chess.com most likely goes with this format because there is no arbiter in online games. Between agreed draws, and automatically triggered ones this scenario is a FIDE draw 99.9999% of the time ( I would say 100 but I don't know every game every played where I could say that).

Also FIDE does have a scenario where the arbiter can get involved and declare a draw if he determines black in this case is not playing to win "by normal means" ie, time.

I'd be interested to see if anyone can show me a FIDE game in a position like this where black won. I'm not saying it never happened when there are so many thousands of games, but it would be a real anomaly if it had.







Avatar of Reef_Drop
lfPatriotGames wrote:

There is another possibility too. Which is a little off topic and may run afoul of the rules. 

In this position, lets say it's the last game of a tournament. During the course of this game the rest of the field has finished their games, and as a result, the final standings all come down to how this game ends. At the beginning of this game, white had a small lead in the tournament. Black was tied for second. 

So if white wins the game, he still wins the tournament, but by a point and a half. If black loses, he drops to third. But, if it's a draw, black remains in a tie for second. And if black wins, he gets second alone. 

During the course of the game, nobody knew this. But now that this position occurs, it all comes down to how this position is played out. White has nothing to lose by either winning, losing, or drawing. He is going to win the tournament. But it just so happens white is friends with black in this game. And it also just so happens that the other person who is tied for second smells bad, cheated on his wife, and only got into this tournament because someone else got into a car accident. 

So now that the last 2 hours have decided the placing of the rest of the field, maybe white suddenly has a very good reason to make some very unlikely moves. 

Lol that could very well be. Maybe even a possibility back in Bobby's time when Soviets would allegedly cooperate with each other, but all the more reason to go by USCF and Chess.com.

Avatar of eric0022
Reef_Drop wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:

A black checkmate here would require white to make moves so bad, you would have to wonder how he even knows how the pieces move, let alone arrive at this endgame. "

 

I agree, but I'll add too that it would have also required black to make terrible moves as well giving white winning chances he never had to until at the last moment white decides he wants to be checkmated instead and traps himself in a corner. It would require both players moving in a manner no FIDE player ever would OR actively cooperating to achieve that result.

I think the best comment on here came from Madhacker who pointed out that Chess.com most likely goes with this format because there is no arbiter in online games. Between agreed draws, and automatically triggered ones this scenario is a FIDE draw 99.9999% of the time ( I would say 100 but I don't know every game every played where I could say that).

1. Also FIDE does have a scenario where the arbiter can get involved and declare a draw if he determines black in this case is not playing to win "by normal means" ie, time.

2. I'd be interested to see if anyone can show me a FIDE game in a position like this where black won. I'm not saying it never happened when there are so many thousands of games, but it would be a real anomaly if it had.







 

1. It depends on the format of the game though.

 

2. I am not so sure if there are such games in FIDE records, but the closest one is Firouzja vs Carlsen.

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/ehmkkc/firouzja_flags_in_a_winning_endgame_against/

Avatar of eric0022
Dimifridge wrote:
eric0022 wrote:
Levitron666 wrote:

Yes, but I can mate him, I thought that's all that matters.

 

Unfortunately, under Chess.com and USCF rules, the side having only a king and a bishop OR knight (with nothing else on the board) draws even if the opponent's materials on the board make it possible for a mate to be delivered by the side having the king and bishop OR knight only.

 

Under FIDE rules though, the outcome would be a win for the player having the king and bishop OR knight only.

bro that sucks

 

It's a sad reality that the rule is there and I have accepted the rule, though I personally don't like the rule.

 

Basically, it's a debate between reasonable sequence of moves versus absolute sequence of moves.

 

Luckily enough, I have not reached that situation in over the board games before.