Issues with draws

Just lost a drawn game on time  (my first game against baltan on Jan 25, 2010).  I had 5 fold repition (not just 3) and there was insufficient mating material in the final position.  (K and N vs K and a-pawn which should be considered insufficient losing chances last I knew, since I wasn't going to the a file and he couldn't force me too.)  Why was I not given a draw for any of these things?  Should I be expecting live chess to not give me draws when I play them?

I'm not sure Live Chess (or some engines for that matter) recognize these rules.  I believe this was brought up at another forum, but that was a while ago.

I see... still feel robbed... I guess I will know better than to play live chess on this site again.

This has been brought up quite a few times. I don't even play livechess but I still know the answer to the OP's question! After three-fold repitition, you must CLAIM the draw, just as in normal OTB chess. It is not automatic. As for the K+N vs. K+P, this is not an automatic draw as it is still possible for a mate to occur. (Not a forced mate, but it's still possible if you blunder).

I did point out that I wasn't going to the a file didn't I?  And I did press the draw button.

you have to push the "claim draw" button right after the three-fold repetition (the button changes from "offer draw" at that moment). if you don't, you can't claim the draw. and it doesn't matter if the mate can be forced as long as the mate is possible (which it is with very poor play).

Yes, but that has nothing to do with it. Livechess is designed to be as similar to OTB chess as possible. In an OTB tournament K+N vs. K+P is considered sufficient mating material, i.e. a mate is still possible. If either side still has chances to win, then it isn't (and in my opinion shouldn't) be called a draw.

First of all wouldn't it be easier for everyone if you could actually provide a link to the game you are talking about in the forum topic! 

Second of all its not a draw anyway! 

samtheman405, not with a decent td it isn't.  It would be called insufficient losing chances.  That's why I am irritated.

trigs, I'm pretty sure I hit the button on the fourth reptition, which technically, would be my second chance at a draw, though as I remember, in OTB I can claim my draw within 10 (? not sure of the exact number) moves so long as I have notation so that I can prove it.

http://www.chess.com/livechess/game.html?id=8213660 is the game blowerd, and what isn't a draw?  If you mean, insufficient losing chances, I know.  It's a draw offer and a claim to a clock with delay if I don't have one.  That would have been enough for a draw.

Well, I've never heard of "insufficient losing chances". Maybe it's different in America... anyway, they're chess.com's rules, and I seem to remember they're taken from FIDE OTB rules (I may be wrong). If you did hit the offer draw button then you should have got your draw, and I can understand why you're irritated. Otherwise, I'm afraid it's not a draw.

I sure thought I did, and you're right.  I am thinking of USCF rules and should have checked FIDE first.  My bad.

What on earth do you mean by:  "insufficient losing chances."  I've played chess since I was 8 and have never heard of such a term. 

I just checked.  They have something called rule 10.2.  By my understanding of that rule, a TD would have given me a draw when the flag fell if I had called him over before hand (which I would have done if it were OTB).

If he hit OFFER draw button then all he has done is OFFERED his opponent a draw, (which can either be accepted or rejected.)  The only way the draw is automatically given is by hitting the CLAIM draw button (which is the same button but changes name when the draw can be automatically claimed.) 

Whatever... I am sorry for making this thread... if there is a way to delete it, please do.

Well as no one apart from you and your opponent was playing how on earth are we supposed to know when you hit the draw button?  I'd still like to know what "insufficient losing chances" is though.  Rule 10.2 is open to interpretation. 

I suggest if you feal really strongly about it you can let the chess.com staff know about it and see what they say of course.  I think I know what they would say but you can still try! 

I'm pretty sure you're wrong about this.  For any draw offer you must first move, then offer the draw.  Your opponent can accept the draw or he can decline the draw by either ignoring you and moving or by just saying "no" or similar.  In the case of a draw claim based on sactioned rules, you must claim the draw.  I don't know how that works here as I play on live chess at chess.com, but for otb, you must find a TD (tournament director) and make your claim which must then be approved.  Usually the TD will take a look at the scores, if he's confused or unclear he may stop the clocks while he/she figures things out and then the issue is decided. 

However, the idea that you can make a 3 move repition claim up to ten moves after the position repeated is just dead wrong.  It must be made immediately after the 3rd repetition or, if it's your turn, as you're about to make the the 3rd repetition yourself. 

Finally this "insufficient losing chances" notion that you're throwing around here is just silly. Keep in mind that you're dealing with a community here that has very, very experienced OTB chess players in it.  We've heard of EVERYTHING, you should not be just making Sh-t up. 

A position is a declared draw if there is insufficient mating material. Period.  It has nothing to do with a TD deciding whether or not you're stupid enough or smart enough to avoid a helpmate. A GM would be treated the same way as a patzer when it comes to this. Nothing is given away for free.

Those are two completely different rules, insufficient mating material and insufficient losing chances.

And in blitz, only the first one exists. 10.2 doesn't exist in blitz.

And online chess generally follows the blitz rules (since 10.2 needs judgement of a TD, and that's really impossible to program).

It's not worth it... and I know that we are the only witnesses so there is no point.

If you want to learn about the USCF's insufficient losing chances rule.  This site should help: http://archive.uschess.org/tds/clockrules.php