Live Chess Doesn't Recognize Dead Positions

EndgameStudier

More than once I have lost (or won), or had to basically waste time making random premoves in positions like this:

This is the most complex example I can think of where mate in not theoretically possible by any moves on each side. It is important to note that this position and others like it are DRAWN, not just "drawish". No breakthroughs exist, but yet this site does not declare them a draw and you just lose/win on time. It's ridiculous. But ironically, in positions like this:

If white runs out of time, the initial position in a win for black because of the absurd move sequence I posted is theoretically possible...

WSama

That's just chess. You may have mate in 7, but the servers aren't going to automatically end the game for you, that would be weird.

Speed chess is as much about time management as it is anything else.

EndgameStudier
WSama wrote:

That's just chess. You may have mate in 7, but the servers aren't going to automatically end the game for you, that would be weird.

Speed chess is as much about time management as it is anything else.

But in the 1st diagram, the game is ended, it is a draw, that's my point. Checkmate is not theoretically possible. I was just using the 2nd example as a comparison, not saying that outcome is unfair, just that it is weird you will be automatically declared lost when he only has 1 pawn, but not a draw when checkmate is not even possible? How is randomly premoving your king around when both players have 5 second left and mate is not possible, chess? Basically, whoever has .1 seconds less will lose when the position is proven to be a draw and premoves should not even be necessary. So yes, there are 6 ways to draw chess:

Insufficient Material

50 Move Rule

Repitition

Agreement

Stalemate

Dead Position.

WSama

Sorry about the diagrams, didn't look into them much.

Let's take the first one for example:

The fifty move rule and the three fold rule should eventually kick in. It would be a burden on the servers to have to analyse every live ongoing blitz games for dead positions as the one above.

EndgameStudier
WSama wrote:

Sorry about the diagrams, didn't look into them much.

Let's take the first one for example:

The fifty move rule and the three fold rule should eventually kick in. It would be a burden on the servers to have to analyse every live ongoing blitz games for dead positions as the one above.

I highly doubt that as there is a built in analyzer for every position, every move, in every game on this site. I recently played a game where I forked my opponent's Queen and King with a Knight and he abandoned the game. I got a message saying that "your opponent has abandoned the game in a lost position, he will be restricted...etc" so it knew that it was a lost position based on 1 fork, so it could definitely recognize that these locked pawns positions with bishops in the same color as the pawns are theoretical draw. As for 50 move rule and repetition, you wish, but remember each king has around say 10-20 squares to bounce around on, so lets say I keep moving my king back and forth between the same two squares and my opponent does one lap around the back rank, around 25 moves, now I move the king to a different square and he does another 20 move lap, multiply this out and you find that it could take over 1,000 moves for a position to repeat twice, let alone 3 times! When you think of it, these dead positions are kind of a subset of stalemate, they could also use the endgame tablebases in dead positions with 7 or fewer pieces (if they exist).

WSama

Fair enough. You are indeed a student of the endgame. I'd like to extend this invitation to join my personal club Z-Gardens whose name was in part inspired by the endgame.

EndgameStudier

Cool, My favorite endgames are Queen vs Rook and 2 knights vs pawn.

WSama

Interesting tastes, EndgameStudier. Join right up and we can start sharing some diagrams with everybody.

mercatorproject

If you are down on the clock, you are lost here, Sad fact, where I have been the loser far more often than not. Sometimes I save myself by 3 fold reps, but many times that is not possible in the remaining shalf minute id the guy ahead on time has a lot of places to put a piece like a bishop. 

JamesColeman

You’re talking about having the server simultaneously constantly analyse every single game - thousands at any given time - in real time to pick up the comparatively rare occasions where despite there being mating material, there’s no possible sequence of moves to win, even if both players cooperate.

 

That server strain would most likely create an insane amount of lag. You’re technically right of course, but I just don’t think it’s practical to implement.

EndgameStudier

There are some ways to compress the method, such as if pawns are locked up on the same rank on alternating files and no other pieces, automatic draw. Include bishops on same color with only those pawn positions, use mathematics to program recognizing pawns on the same rank...etc

 

kingandqueen2017

It only recognizes a draw when there is insufficient material left on the board, such as a king vs king, knight, bishop, etc. That would be the case in over the board too. If you flagged when your opponent still had pawns, you'd lose, since you can still technically "mate" with those pieces.