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Anti Cheating Puzzle :D

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Susik_Gaboyan

I don't knot the solution yet grin.png

if you find it write in the comments

KeSetoKaiba

I don't know the solution yet either, but this looks like a good puzzle. Perhaps we could all share ideas and evaluation in this forum thread until someone figures out the puzzle. Sometimes it just takes some verbal bouncing of ideas for the solution to reveal itself happy.png

Here are some of my initial thoughts as I work on this puzzle. 

The first thing I did was count material and noticed that White is down a pawn and that both the White Knight and Black Bishop are entombed and out of play for now. Being a pawn down isn't typically a promising start to an endgame which one is trying to win. I also noticed how unlikely this pawn structure looks - is this even a legal position? I guess it doesn't matter if this position is reachable or not, we are already here grin.png

Next I noticed that the Black pawns look like they serve as "useless" moves in reserve, as pushing them (or being forced to by lack of moves otherwise) would illustrate Black's state of being in zugswang. My guess is that these "useless" pawn moves is a way that this puzzle recreates the "Horizon effect" in computers and "tricks" the engine into seeing a line it incorrectly evaluates as winning, but is in fact a red herring (more on that below). Perhaps the solution somehow involves trapping the enemy King such that the Black pawns must advance so Black runs out of moves and then allows White to infiltrate somehow - speaking of which now I recognize a fact which I noticed embarrassingly late...the Black Bishop is under attack by the White King lol. 

I should have recognized that almost instantly, but it took me a few seconds to notice xD

Okay, now the gears in my head are turning because I predict 1. Kxg1?? is the red herring I sensed earlier by evaluating the position. The engine probably believes that winning material gives a winning advantage here, but with the White Knight seemingly forever trapped in the corner and the White King having no infiltration points, I don't think taking the Bishop would change anything for the better. If anything, it would solidify the draw by simplification as maybe the real puzzle solution involves Black advancing all of their pawns to a halt and then being forced into moving the Bishop to h2 and giving White a key tempo to win.

If White's King captures the Bishop, then the location of Black's pawns create a fortress where White can't make progress; even advancing the pawn with a2-a3 doesn't yet appear to be meaningful because I still don't see a way in for the White King on the Queenside.

My following observation is that White does have a promising 3 vs 1 Kingside pawn majority from the 5th rank onwards - specifically with the f5 pawn being a passed pawn or the potential of the g5 pawn becoming a passer by force. However, the Black King nearby seems more than enough to hold even two pawns.

I'll keep thinking about this position, but these are my noteworthy observations so far and sometimes just sharing ideas like these can help spark similar ideas from others and get us one step closer to solving this interesting puzzle. happy.png

KeSetoKaiba

Still don't have it yet, but upon calculating a bit more I don't think the 3 vs 1 passed pawns are enough to promote and win by this, but rather some means by which to force the King into defense to so that Black is forced into pawn or Bishop moves which should eventually run out. I also noticed that the "trapped" Knight defends the f2 pawn base, so the King is actually free to move. The pawn to a3 is also suspicious to me. It makes the a2 square available and I calculate to realize that if the King isn't needed to guard the f2 pawn, then hypothetically there might be a long sequence to pass a single tempo at the correct time - namely the idea of: 

1. a3 (perhaps with urgency to play instantly as to avoid Black from playing a4...a3 and clamping the position shut permanently). Bh2 2. Ke1 Bg1 3. Kd1 Bh2 4. Kc1 Bg1 5. Kb1 Bh2 6. Ka2 (utilizing triangulation idea) Bg1 7. Ka1 Bh2 8. Kb1 Bg1 9. Kc1 Bh2 10. Kd1 Bg1 11. Ke1 Bh2 12. Kf1 and now a Black Bishop move would be moving towards the King rather than the original position where it could move away from the King. Of course, this calculation was to illustrate a conceptual idea because Black also had King moves and pawn moves available. 

My primary candidate move now is 1. a3 because of the urgency to prevent ...a4-a3 (not yet proven to be of critical importance, but it very well might be) and leaving the White King where it is at. White can then utilize the 3 vs 1 pawn majority to somehow put the King into a defensive state such that it is tied to defense. Then it would be just a matter of Black slowly using up their pawn moves until they must move the tied down King away from something or move the Bishop towards the King with a tempo different than the starting position. I don't yet see the significance of these concepts (or which ones are relevant if not all of them), but perhaps this can spark the correct idea for someone else to solve by building off of some of my thoughts. happy.png

KeSetoKaiba

Okay, last post before I let someone else contribute grin.png

I don't visualize the entire solution yet, but I think the two key moves to see are 1. a3 then Black plays anything really and 2. h6 which halts the only Black pawn defending in the 3 vs 1 majority there. Maybe 1. a3 h6 is the only problem I can foresee; I'm fairly confident (by no means certain) that 1. a3 is the first move, but maybe the second move for White I haven't stumbled upon yet...

Irongine

last post was bad due to coordinates

I'll spend time remaking it later.

Irongine

Here is the position for easier vision



Irongine

My suggestion is that we play 1.g6. If they don't take and play something like h6, we play a3. If they do take, it makes a structure where you can't take the behind pawn. If they play a3, we take and push f6 and then h6 ourselves.

acity609

ok so I think I have the solution.  I don't want to spoil it but it starts with 1.h6

ChessDude009

This is an amazing study! The fact that it tricks the computer into a "winning" line is also insane!

Anyways, the kings are locked, and the knights are locked, so the solution is probably a zugzwang/push wood.

GMahatma

1.h6 Bh2 (forced)

2.a3 making room for triangulation, ez game.

 

edit: beating stockfish when it says 0.00 is fun.

 

dude0812

I have a feeling that Yosha Iglesias is fooling us, there is no solution, white's king is stuck on the last rank, white knight can't move, the only thing that can move are those 3 pawns on the 6th rank, but black king can just shuffle back and forth and it is a draw.

dude0812
GMahatma wrote:

1.h6 Bh2 (forced)

2.a3 making room for triangulation, ez game.

 

edit: beating stockfish when it says 0.00 is fun.

 

Why do you need triangulation? Just play h6, then black plays a random waiting move, white plays f6 and sooner than later black runs out of waiting moves and has to play Kf8 or Kh8, if black plays Kh8 then f7 wins. If black plays Kf8 then white can play g6 and black can't play hxg6 because of h7 and either the h pawn or the f pawn will promote.

GMahatma
dude0812 wrote:
GMahatma wrote:

1.h6 Bh2 (forced)

2.a3 making room for triangulation, ez game.

 

edit: beating stockfish when it says 0.00 is fun.

 

Why do you need triangulation? Just play h6, then black plays a random waiting move, white plays f6 and sooner than later black runs out of waiting moves and has to play Kf8 or Kh6, if black plays Kh8 then f7 wins. If black plays Kf8 then white can play g6 and black can't play hxg6 because of h7 and either the h pawn or the f pawn will promote.

 

triangulation is needed because black can make waiting moves with the bishop (that's why 1..Bh2 is forced to prolong things).

triangulation leads to black first losing the bishop eventually, then running out of waiting moves thus moving the king and white can promote one of the pawns on f6 or h6 (the only winning mechanism in the position that forces 1.h6)

dude0812

No, it doesn't work because after h6 black can play Kf7.

Edit: this refers to my previous comment.

GMahatma
dude0812 wrote:

No, it doesn't work because after h6 black can play Kf7 

I am too tired to post a thorough analysis, but rest assured I beat stockfish in the position and I even altered it's output in a couple positions to see if what I do holds up vs other lines as well.

ScatteredWealth

There are a few things that we can establish in this position.

1. White's king and knight are fixed to the first rank

2. Black's bishop is stuck on the g1 and h2 squares

That means that the only way to win would be by somehow promoting one of our pawns on either f5, g5, or h5. However, there is a black king and pawn defending three pawns from promoting.

From my logical standpoint, I don't see any way that white's three pawns can surpass black's king and pawn. Of course, there might be some triangulation maneuver mentioned above that I have missed. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

dude0812

I understood the part about taking the bishop and thus depriving black of bishop waiting moves under the assumption that those are the only waiting moves he has. If black has to move the bishop back and forth than indeed a3 and triangulation wins the bishop and black has no more waiting moves with the bishop. That's all well and good but I don't understand how you win if after white plays h6 black just plays Kf7 Kf8 Kg8. I tried f6 in that situation but when white plays f6 black can play Kf7 and then move his king back and forth between f7 and g6

GMahatma

i just tried to post the solution didn't work as well chess.com is buggy as hell lately

dude0812
GMahatma wrote:

i just tried to post the solution didn't work as well chess.com is buggy as hell lately

Can you show me by playing it out against me, is there such an option to challenge me (unrated) to a game from custom position. I want to play black then we can post our game here.

GMahatma

try this vs stockfish (he will move the king a bit before he loses the bishop but lol engines):

1. h6 Bh2 2. a3 c5 3. g6 c4 4. f6 hxg6 5. Ke1 c6 6. Kf1 g5 7. Ke1 Bg1 8. Kd1 Bh2 9. Kc1 Bg1 10. Kb1 Bh2 11. Ka1 Bg1 12. Kb1 Bh2 13. Ka2 c5 14. Kb1 Bg1 15. Kc1 a6 16. Kb1 Bh2 17. Ka2 a5 18. Kb1 Bg1 19. Kc1 Bh2 20. Kd1 Bg1 21. Ke1 Bh2 22. Kf1 Bg1 23. Kxg1 Kf7 24. h7

 

I tried as animated diagram, it's not working sry for format.