Can you solve this??

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Mickdonedee
westbrookrussell wrote:

Here's a game where black won the game with a precise and great move. Although he was using an engine and got banned for Fair Play, it still is a sight to see and a great mating pattern to find. See if you have what it takes to beat a 2100.

Re: #13 I didn't find the idea for 5...Qe4. So, I would have brought the Knight into play to help find mate. Nice puzzle, though.

Mickdonedee
magipi wrote:
westbrookrussell wrote:

I think i would've taken the knight as well and with the addition of a move like Bd1+, i think it would've been much more acceptable for Komodo to do. But again, this is a game between two engines. I just watched this happen. I had no control over their moves.

The point is that when you give a puzzle to the audience, there has to be only one solution. If two different moves are both mate-in-8, you can't just say that Rh8 is the solution and Qxc7 is incorrect.

Actually, Qxc7 is mate-in-9. So, technically Rh8 is the correct solution as it mates in 8 moves. It's just that I wouldn't have calculated that Rh8 was better. 

unused_potato

Here's a relatively boring puzzle. In this game Stockfish 15 lasted a total of 60 moves against Komodo 25 with a forced mate on move 48. See if you can find the astounding 12 move forced checkmate.

 

unused_potato

I'll keep the engine moves coming with precise mating patterns. Hopefully that's ok and safe enough to share. More for learning to see these patterns in-game but also for a bit of fun and frustration.

Mickdonedee
westbrookrussell wrote:

I'll keep the engine moves coming with precise mating patterns. Hopefully that's ok and safe enough to share. More for learning to see these patterns in-game but also for a bit of fun and frustration.

Frustration is accurate. The move order of engines can be very unpredictable. I'd prefer to make natural moves even if it takes a couple of moves longer to mate.

unused_potato

After a seemingly even game, Komodo 25 makes a blunder on move 45...Na4, and in only 9 moves Stockfish 15 delivers a checkmate. See if you have what it takes to beat this 3200 chess engine in just 9 moves.

 

unused_potato

As much as it is fun for you, it's fun for me too. However, it takes time to find these games. I mostly adore the games made by Stockfish to Komodo not because they're close in rating that being Stockfish 15 (3920) and Komodo 25 (3200) but because they play in such a way that to the untrained eye may seem like a normal-ish game if not already played by an engine. However, the way that Stockfish 15 delivers trap moves and moves that may seem natural is the main reason why Komodo would be a great match against Stockfish. But, if you would rather see other games then that's fine as well. I'll try to find other games that include not only chess engines but probably some immortal or just amazing checkmate leading games played by true champions of players on the board.

unused_potato

Stockfish 15 demolishes Komodo 25 with astonishing and top level engine moves where only the right moves can lead to the fastest checkmate. See if you can find every single mate threat and sacrifice to find the best way to checkmate Komodo 25.

 

Mickdonedee
westbrookrussell wrote:

After a seemingly even game, Komodo 25 makes a blunder on move 45...Na4, and in only 9 moves Stockfish 15 delivers a checkmate. See if you have what it takes to beat this 3200 chess engine in just 9 moves.

Re #26 I beat Stockfish. I found mate in 2 moves! 

unused_potato
Mickdonedee wrote:
westbrookrussell wrote:

After a seemingly even game, Komodo 25 makes a blunder on move 45...Na4, and in only 9 moves Stockfish 15 delivers a checkmate. See if you have what it takes to beat this 3200 chess engine in just 9 moves.

Re #26 I beat Stockfish. I found mate in 2 moves! 

 

Well admittedly you did find mate in 2, however that isn't what Komodo 25 would've played albeit in a lost position. In a game found in the Chess Tournament, Komodo played Rd5 to prevent Rd8, therefore stockfish moved his rook to B7 to get the rook out of the line of sight. Even though the rook still managed to come to d8 to the king's safety the rook on b7 transferred to h7 to show and finally deliver a checkmate. However, I do like your solution if it was played by a regular person, it seems fun and just saves me from the hassle of thinking of multiple engine moves.

Mickdonedee
westbrookrussell wrote:

Well admittedly you did find mate in 2, however that isn't what Komodo 25 would've played albeit in a lost position. In a game found in the Chess Tournament, Komodo played Rd5 to prevent Rd8, therefore stockfish moved his rook to B7 to get the rook out of the line of sight. Even though the rook still managed to come to d8 to the king's safety the rook on b7 transferred to h7 to show and finally deliver a checkmate. However, I do like your solution if it was played by a regular person, it seems fun and just saves me from the hassle of thinking of multiple engine moves.

Yes, I was just having some fun. But, it does highlight how important Black's first move is to prevent a checkmate on the next move. Black's Rook or Knight could also have checked the White King to delay the inevitable mate by White. But, that would have turned an M9 into an M12. So, Stockfish found the quickest mate. I'm surprised that Komodo didn't play to drag the game out to an M12.

Mickdonedee
westbrookrussell wrote:

Stockfish 15 demolishes Komodo 25 with astonishing and top level engine moves where only the right moves can lead to the fastest checkmate. See if you can find every single mate threat and sacrifice to find the best way to checkmate Komodo 25.

 Re #28 The first move was easily found but then Black can block with a couple of different pieces. So, the solution will change depending on which piece it blocks with. I also think that it's likely that the White Queen and Rook have the best chance of getting a back rank mate. Therefore, the White Bishop on the b file will have to leave that file and the Black Pawn on the a file will have to be captured by the White Rook to clear access to the back rank. I think if you follow that strategy Black will start playing desperado moves to delay mate. So, I think it's doable by a human in about 11 moves.  Quicker if Black blunders.

Arisktotle
Mickdonedee wrote:

I'm surprised that Komodo didn't play to drag the game out to an M12.

As a defender dragging out a game to the max is bad strategy - both for humans and engines. When you see the mate coming you will attempt to lure your opponent into a trap which gives you a chance if your opponent falls into it. "Dragging out" is only a sound strategy in puzzles which demand you behead your opponent ASAP.

Engines playing one another will not commonly know they are playing a machine or know what the capabilities of that machine are. If Komodo would know up front that StockFish would have read out the #12 sequence as well, it would simply resign. But it gambles on the possibility there is a stupid human on the other side of the board - or a badly programmed engine.

unused_potato
Mickdonedee wrote:
westbrookrussell wrote:

Stockfish 15 demolishes Komodo 25 with astonishing and top level engine moves where only the right moves can lead to the fastest checkmate. See if you can find every single mate threat and sacrifice to find the best way to checkmate Komodo 25.

 Re #28 The first move was easily found but then Black can block with a couple of different pieces. So, the solution will change depending on which piece it blocks with. I also think that it's likely that the White Queen and Rook have the best chance of getting a back rank mate. Therefore, the White Bishop on the b file will have to leave that file and the Black Pawn on the a file will have to be captured by the White Rook to clear access to the back rank. I think if you follow that strategy Black will start playing desperado moves to delay mate. So, I think it's doable by a human in about 11 moves.  Quicker if Black blunders.

Seeing as Komodo 25 and Stockfish 15 are high rated engines with capabilities much better than even the best of players that have been over the board, it would be unlikely to find a solution with your rendition of how the game would have ended. Testing out possibilities to get the back rank checkmate and the taking of the pawns on the A file, I couldn't find solutions to lead to a mate in 11 but rather a slight disadvantage or a loss for Stockfish 15 losing to Komodo 25 with over-whelming force of bishops and strong pieces. If you do happen to find a mate in 11 or another way to get a faster mate than the solution provided and played by the set engines, please do let me know. I'd actually be really intrigued to find out what insane and unpredictable moves Stockfish 15 can deliver.

llama36
westbrookrussell wrote:

Here's a game where black won the game with a precise and great move. Although he was using an engine and got banned for Fair Play, it still is a sight to see and a great mating pattern to find. See if you have what it takes to beat a 2100.

Yeah, you can tell it's dumb engine moves because a human would play 4...Rh1

llama36

When every move wins it's not a good puzzle... well, it's not even a puzzle at all, it's just guess the move silliness.

OP's puzzle was good.

Mickdonedee
westbrookrussell wrote:

 If you do happen to find a mate in 11 or another way to get a faster mate than the solution provided and played by the set engines, please do let me know. I'd actually be really intrigued to find out what insane and unpredictable moves Stockfish 15 can deliver.

Sorry, I didn't save the Mate-in-11. But, I've posted a Mate-in-7; Mate-in-9 and Mate-in-12 below.

unused_potato
Mickdonedee wrote:
westbrookrussell wrote:

 If you do happen to find a mate in 11 or another way to get a faster mate than the solution provided and played by the set engines, please do let me know. I'd actually be really intrigued to find out what insane and unpredictable moves Stockfish 15 can deliver.

Sorry, I didn't save the Mate-in-11. But, I've posted a Mate-in-7; Mate-in-9 and Mate-in-12 below.

 

 

 

Well I do have to admire the diligence and hardwork you put into finding these checkmates in different move orders to deliver checkmates in a certain number of moves. You even managed to show me back rank mates with said Queen or a possibility of a rook being able to go to the back rank to deliver this checkmate.

However, there are many problems with these solutions if we're taking into perspective that these are engines and they would be making the moves in which case even if it was played by a human, they would want to find tougher moves so to trick the opponent or prevent checkmating threats. With both solutions 1st and 3rd you played Ra1 after the move order of Bg5.. Be7.. and in response for your rook move there were different moves that Black could have done to prevent any checkmate from happening in the next few moves. An example while looking at the analysis of the games were Bxg5 or Qe6 which prevents any possible Queen or Rook moves and instead would have to resort into the moving of the bishop.

But, the checkmate pattern that's shown in the 2nd one shows amazing and great ways you disproved me by getting a Queen checkmate on the back rank where it was also alternatively possible to get the Rook in the same position. However, after Bg5 on the first move towards its inevitability, Black as an engine or even as a human would rather or most likely in many circumstances play Be7 to block the check and question White what it will do to deliver checkmate. Seeing Re7 played instead of the bishop move would be irrational, irresponsible and would come without reason as it doesn't seem to accomplish much unless if Black was to resign completely by giving up it's Rook or if Black simply wanted to lose in a much faster and stylish way. 

I will not comment further towards your checkmating patterns as some people might or may do your possible solution but in the case of Komodo 25 vs Stockfish 15 it would have been impossible for either Ra1 to be played or Re7 after the inevitable Bg5.

My conclusion to all of this and all 3 of your solutions is that even though they show excellence in ways to checkmate the king in the back rank or rather, completely with your pieces to deliver it, it would have been incredibly unlikely for Stockfish 15 by taking into consideration of his rating- to have played Ra1 and he would have in return just found a faster solution to end the game quickly.

Mickdonedee

Thanks for that explanation. I have a follow up question: On move #2 why did Komodo move 2...Bb5 attacking the White Queen when itself was undefended? Shouldn't it have taken the White Bishop with 2....Bxg5? How do you explain this nonsensical behaviour from Komodo? By capturing the White Bishop it would also control the c1 square preventing a White Rook from landing there to support the White Queen on the c-file.

unused_potato

Komodo as an engine, even though it itself didn't know it was fighting an engine, analyzed that it was in a losing position and underway to a checkmate. So Komodo 25 would eventually give up the bishop on move 48 as it saw that it can free up space for the king from where it used to be. It is true that Bb5 was undefended and that it may have been a bad move or a move that may seem it may come out without reason. I myself have asked the question, what if he had moved a different piece? And the solution was always simple enough to where after Bg5+, Be7, Bd5, there was no stopping checkmate therefore assuming Komodo did this as what you keep calling a "desperado" move, it wanted to free up the space for the king and potentially find a way to keep the game going where he can find some space to stay in the game.

Answering your question about why there was no Bxg5, Komodo could've played a few other moves that would've led to a delay of a checkmate but Bxg5 would have led to the exact same number of moves as it would take to checkmate Black as it would with Bb5. It is foolish to assume anything of these engines so I'm gathering these facts based off of what I know happened off of the game and that's that Komodo 25 analyzed this position and found that Bb5 at the time was the best move along with a handful of other ones to delay checkmate. 

So again as a conclusion to this, Bb5 was just a move to delay checkmate and the square to c1 that you mentioned in your reply was indeed left out but I would think that if there were to be any action done to that specific square there would have to be an added amount of pieces or the right moves so to get a checkmate or at the very least win enough material to win the game.