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Avatar of n9531l

No, it's not a proof. Finding one faulty approach doesn't prove that no other approaches could work.

Avatar of Millenniums

You should know that a second fraction less than half of a second made the initial hands arrangement would be impossible if you know how the second hand ticks meaning.

Avatar of RubenHogenhout
n9531l schreef:
RubenHogenhout wrote:

But now I find that an mirroring the Original postition in the Y-axis  give new prospects.

Mirroring the hands across a vertical axis of the clock face is equivalent to having a clock that runs backwards. So you have indeed found the time at which the hand spacing is exactly the same as in the starting position. But how would you go about proving that this is the first time at which the spacing APPEARS to be the same?

I still believe the puzzle as stated has no solution, or several solutions, depending on the assumptions made by the solver.

 

There isn t an earlier solution then this. Because all other rotations do not result in real clock times. And this one is the only one that generates a real clock time. Becuase the clock mechanisme is this the only one that the small arm is just at the same distance as in the starting position to the hour. 5 before three is equal to 5 past 9 as you look at how the arms stands. Only this mirroring works. All other times likes 20 sec to 4 or 20 seconds past 8 fails. The small arm must then be closer to the number then by the starting position. The other times around the half o Clock are even worse and generates no real clock times as you can see very easy. The more degrees you turn how worse they become. Only if you goes till this time.  Yes this clock time must be the and only solution. There is no other time so that the small arm is as close to three or the nine. The clock turn forward or backward exactly the same. So the three corresponds with the nine. You can t use hours closer to the twelve and also not further down to the 6 past the Three or nine at both sides. Because then you change the clock meganisme and the angels. I understands it and tried it out. Don t only know how to presice to explain it in English becuase it not my mother language but I try. I hope you understands me why other translations ( like in this picture ) not works.  You can take you watch and you will see it.

You know if you do not use for example the 9 or three our position you also do not have the 5 to or 5 past minutes position but for example 10 to or 10 past. Our quarter to or quarter past. And this infuence also the position from the our arm that then must be or closer or further away form the number. ( close to the hour ) this distence to the hour from the hour arm keeps with all the rotations and other translations the same but in the real time it will be never the same. It will Always differ. Except in the mirroring to the nine. This is the onl translation in wich this distence stays the same! I hope I say it clear now.

 

Avatar of RubenHogenhout
phpgFaNya.jpegkeju schreef:
n9531l wrote:

Perhaps someone would like to consider the case of a real wristwatch, for which the second hand typically moves in discrete jumps ...

Back in post 34, sameez1 considered a clock whose face was divided into 60 units, where every unit represents one tick. The second hand ticks once a second, the minute hand ticks once a minute, and the hour hand ticks once every 12 minutes.

At 2:54:34, the second hand is at 34, the minute hand at 54, and the hour hand at 14. Exactly 120 degrees apart. This is Loyd's diagram:

 

At 3:38:58, the second hand will be at 58, the minute hand at 38, and the hour hand at 18. Exactly 120 degrees apart again. This is 44 minutes and 24 seconds away. This is the answer sameez1 recommended.

We might also consider 3:16:16, when all three hands point to 16. This is only 21 minutes and 42 seconds away.

I don't like this clock because I always thought Loyd would have gone for continuously moving hands without making us guess the clock mechanism. Also, it means that Loyd's diagram was not completely precise. (Loyd's second hand is not at 34, but is clearly between 34 and 35. Why did he not draw it exactly at 34? Was it so hard?)

But almost everyone else thinks these points are minor! If so, then I would endorse this clock and maybe Loyd's trick was all three hands lining up at 3:16:16?

 

This first time is not possible because it is not a clock time. When it is half past four. The small arm is between the 4 and then 5 just in the middle. After ten past this half time it is a bit further then the half more to te five then past the middle. Becuase it is an translation the hour arm keep still near the hour ( number ) and this is never the case as it is near half past the our. The time is no clock time. It means that the clock will never generate this time as you let it run.

As you can see on the picture that I show here with correspondent with your solution. It fails becuase the hour arm in this picture must be between the 4 and the 5 and a bit more to the five. Because its allreay past the half past 5.  On this way you can verifi and reason that all this rotations fails. Wich I did.  The minutes arm must Always be close to the twelve becuase the hour arm is close to the hour ( number ) so all the times around half past fails anyway.  But also 10 to or 10 past or 20 to or 20 past fails becuase the angel is diffent then with 3 0 clock. And that is why only this past 9 o Clock this mirroing wich I send is the only translating before after 12 hours later that is a real clock time that is possible. As you can verify. therfore I strongly believe And I am think I am right that only the horizontal mirroring that I gave is the only real solution. And there is no earlier solution that is in overeenstemming with how a clock runs. Translations are fun and the distances of the arms keep equal this way but also importent is that is give a real times that is possible when you let the clock run as was earlier mentioned by n95311 before. Thats why I took this in account too.

 

Avatar of n9531l
RubenHogenhout wrote:

There isn t an earlier solution then this. Because all other rotations do not result in real clock times.

But what if I decide the hands appear equally spaced at 5:49:09? Then that time will be my solution to the puzzle as given. I can do that, because I'm the sole judge of how things appear to me.

Avatar of RubenHogenhout
n9531l schreef:
RubenHogenhout wrote:

There isn t an earlier solution then this. Because all other rotations do not result in real clock times.

But what if I decide the hands appear equally spaced at 5:49:09? Then that time will be my solution to the puzzle as given. I can do that, because I'm the sole judge of how things appear to me.

 

Lol whats thats for kind of joke? Does the clock time if that is possible not count anymore?  Not serious anymore?

 

Avatar of n9531l

No joke. The puzzle asks for the next time the hands appear equal distances apart. The hands appear equal distances apart at 5:49:09, which is earlier than the time you have proposed.

Avatar of RubenHogenhout
n9531l schreef:

No joke. The puzzle asks for the next time the hands appear equal distances apart. The hands appear equal distances apart at 5:49:09, which is earlier than the time you have proposed.

Can you show me that time?

 

Avatar of n9531l
RubenHogenhout wrote:
n9531l schreef:

No joke. The puzzle asks for the next time the hands appear equal distances apart. The hands appear equal distances apart at 5:49:09, which is earlier than the time you have proposed.

 

 Can you show me that time?

php3Safkl.jpeg

Avatar of sameez1

Set your clock at 3:15 let it run until 3:16:16 the hands all appear equally distant from each other.I don't know how you could honestly say that they don't.

Avatar of RubenHogenhout

Ah rotation of 210 degrees!  I had it also among my possibilities.

But the problem here is also that 10 to 6  is not the same as 5 to three and the small arm is closer to the 3 with 5 to three then with 10 to 6 because it is closer to the hour. With rotations distantes remains the same. And there for the 5 past 9 is better becuase in this case the distance from the small arm to the nine is exactly the same as to the three. Becuase in this case past the hour is equal to 5 minutes to the hour if you speak about the small arm to the hour.  Thats why this is not better then the example I gave. The 5 past nine remains better.

Avatar of n9531l
sameez1 wrote:

Set your clock at 3:15 let it run until 3:16:16 the hands all appear equally distant from each other.I don't know how you could honestly say that they don't.

I took Sameez1's advice and set my clock at 3:15:00 and let it run until 3:16:16. I can honestly say the hands don't appear equally distant from each other, because the second hand is clearly closer to the minute hand than to the hour hand. (The longest hand is the minute hand. The shortest hand is the hour hand.)

php2AIYCV.jpegphpxXz7HD.jpeg

Avatar of sameez1

@9531l you can see it on that clock you don't need the close up. I did it with a watch looked ok on it.

Avatar of RubenHogenhout

Yeah but they are clearly not all at the same place and also three arms like this on the same place is clearly not what was ment, The puzzel said that they must at the same distences apart like in the begin situation and that was the Hour arm the minute arm and second arm all in Mercedes Benz angels. null

Avatar of sameez1

@RubenHoganhout Yes obviously the hands do not appear all together,but there is no wording that stipulates as shown; just appear at an equal distance, so if they did appear all together I think that would fit the task,but it doesn't matter it don't work anyway. 

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