Lost solution

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Avatar of Dark_Army
cobra91 wrote:
sameez1 wrote:

@ cobra91  NMDale answers 5minute 5seconds is how soon the hands will appear equal again.no disrespect to him I would not be entering that answer.You could send it  if you like it.

Then I fear you'd be wasting your [hypothetical] time. As I see it, the probability that NM Dale's answer is identical to Loyd's is at least 0.9-0.95, while the probability that Loyd's intended solution depends upon arbitrary unspecified definitions (such as an exact mathematical definition for "appear") is precisely zero. The probability that either of my proposed answers from post #3 ("never" or "12 hours") is correct is nonzero, but negligible.

There's a small but significant chance (~0.05-0.1) that Loyd's answer involves some other unconventional (but very logical) mechanism for the pictured clock, which no one has thought of yet. The key, though, is that the clock in NM Dale's solution always displays the correct time with perfect precision (albeit via a different encoding than is typical for analogue clocks), which is an important property of ideal clocks that is tough to replicate for alternative rotation schemes.

 

NM Dale's answer must be incorrect.

The minute and second hands would have advanced 5 units, but the hour hand would be in virtually the same position. Distances between the hands would be approximately 16 minutes, 25 minutes and 20 minutes.

Avatar of n9531l
sameez1 wrote:

@ 9531l what time will the M be exactly 40 again will it take 12 hours or does it work out at 1:05:25 approximately.

It will get back to 40 and beyond. I was wrong when I said it won't go above 40. I didn't think much about the highly unequally spaced case and didn't consider what would happen when one hand is on the low side and the other two are a little below 60. M has a local maximum of 50.3 at 4:54:55. After 12 noon, M first gets back to 40 at 3:43:43.69.

Of course this is unrelated to the solution, which depends on finding the times when M is close to zero.

Avatar of n9531l

For fun I checked all of M's minima over the full 12 hour span. Besides Loyd's starting time, I found three other times with M less than 0.1, corresponding to a deviation from exactly equal spacing of less than half a percent.

5:49:09.096  M=0.056
6:10:50.903  M=0.057
9:05:25.450  M=0.028

For me the value of this puzzle was the challenge of finding a mathematical relation between the current time and a reasonable measure of spacing equality. For others, it was the challenge of figuring out what kind of watch Loyd must have based the puzzle on.

Avatar of cobra91
n9531l wrote:

For me the value of this puzzle was the challenge of finding a mathematical relation between the current time and a reasonable measure of spacing equality. For others, it was the challenge of figuring out what kind of watch Loyd must have based the puzzle on.

You seem to have ignored the fact that, in the context of Sam Loyd's puzzle, the "measure of spacing equality" is not a real number, but rather a boolean value; either the hands are equally spaced, or they are not. So graphs are of no use... besides serving as an indirect and relatively inefficient method of proving that an ideal clock with 3 uniformly rotating hands can never satisfy the puzzle's requirements. Note that I'd already proven this as early as post #3 (~10 days ago, now, I believe).

What I failed to realize (though it became evident to me almost immediately after seeing NM Dale's spectacular solution) is that such a proof also constitutes an indirect proof that the hands of Sam Loyd's clock do not rotate uniformly. I made the mistake of initially assuming the clock's hands moved uniformly, as I considered this to be a necessary property of any clock which keeps perfect time. NM Dale's post #15 demonstrates it is NOT a necessary property, however:

Let h be the number the hour hand points to (rounded to the nearest whole number), m the number the minute hand points to (rounded to the nearest fifth), and s the number the second hand points to (rounded to the nearest fifth). Then the current time displayed by Dale's clock is always  t = h:5m:5s  

Dale's clock also produces the elegant answer of "5 minutes and 5 seconds", making it extremely difficult for any other interpretations to match its soundness.

Avatar of keju

Not convinced by any of the analyses so far, including my own. The cleanest is the one by NMDale, championed by cobra91, on which the hour hand jumps in one breath from 3 to 4. But I agree with many of the others that this departs too much from actual clock behaviour (especially in Loyd's day) to be an acceptable solution. Loyd was a trickster, but this trick seems to me to be below the belt. Frown

I agree with cobra91 however that, whatever solution Loyd had in mind, it would have been a pretty "clean" one. The other analyses are all too messy to have been intended.

Can I throw in another observation? The puzzle speaks of the hands being "equal distances apart". Has anyone noticed that when all three hands line up together, they will be equal distances apart, namely a distance of zero? The obvious case here is noon, but there may be other cases too. E.g., slightly after 3:15, all three hands will line up. This is a terrible trick, but this one doesn't seem to me to be below the belt. We should keep this possibility in mind maybe?

Avatar of n9531l
cobra91 wrote:
You seem to have ignored the fact that, in the context of Sam Loyd's puzzle, the "measure of spacing equality" is not a real number, but rather a boolean value; either the hands are equally spaced, or they are not.

Rather than ignoring that "fact", I arrived at my own context which made possible some activity that I enjoyed. So from my perspective Loyd succeeded as a puzzle maker.

Avatar of Arisktotle
keju wrote:

.. The puzzle speaks of the hands being "equal distances apart". Has anyone noticed that when all three hands line up together, they will be equal distances apart, namely a distance of zero? The obvious case here is noon ...

That would be another creative solution worthy of Sam Loyd. The only issue I have with it is that if the original hands are really equally spaced on the puzzle time then the clock has an error and they will not be at noon! And if you accept an error in the initial spacing then the other answers (like n9531l's) are valid as well even when imprecise in comparison to your suggestion.

Avatar of keju
Arisktotle wrote:

That would be another creative solution worthy of Sam Loyd. The only issue I have with it is that if the original hands are really equally spaced on the puzzle time then the clock has an error and they will not be at noon! And if you accept an error in the initial spacing then the other answers (like n9531l's) are valid as well even when imprecise in comparison to your suggestion.

Agreed, the zero spacing option introduces new possibilities without making things any clearer, it seems. I'm close to giving up, as sameez1 says for sake of my health!

Avatar of n9531l

I thought keju's suggestion was a good one, and it does provide a counterexample to cobra91's proof that there is never even a single instant when the angular distances are all equal (comment #3). My objection to it as the solution is that there are sooner times when the hands will appear to be equal distances apart, and the puzzle asks how soon it will happen.

Avatar of sameez1

@ cobra91 That you would dismiss the word appears but accept the invention of an analog clock that the hour hand jumps an hour all at once.NM Dale even invents the second that the hand jumps on this morphed digital analog clock,wouldn't with this digital thinking hand movement the hour hand won't be ready to do its jump until the second hand reaches the 12.Even with the invention of a clock that don't exist now and certainly didn't then NMDale solution is not one I would choose.

Avatar of RubenHogenhout
cobra91 schreef:
n9531l wrote:

For me the value of this puzzle was the challenge of finding a mathematical relation between the current time and a reasonable measure of spacing equality. For others, it was the challenge of figuring out what kind of watch Loyd must have based the puzzle on.

You seem to have ignored the fact that, in the context of Sam Loyd's puzzle, the "measure of spacing equality" is not a real number, but rather a boolean value; either the hands are equally spaced, or they are not. So graphs are of no use... besides serving as an indirect and relatively inefficient method of proving that an ideal clock with 3 uniformly rotating hands can never satisfy the puzzle's requirements. Note that I'd already proven this as early as post #3 (~10 days ago, now, I believe).

What I failed to realize (though it became evident to me almost immediately after seeing NM Dale's spectacular solution) is that such a proof also constitutes an indirect proof that the hands of Sam Loyd's clock do not rotate uniformly. I made the mistake of initially assuming the clock's hands moved uniformly, as I considered this to be a necessary property of any clock which keeps perfect time. NM Dale's post #15 demonstrates it is NOT a necessary property, however:

Let h be the number the hour hand points to (rounded to the nearest whole number), m the number the minute hand points to (rounded to the nearest fifth), and s the number the second hand points to (rounded to the nearest fifth). Then the current time displayed by Dale's clock is always  t = h:5m:5s  

Dale's clock also produces the elegant answer of "5 minutes and 5 seconds", making it extremely difficult for any other interpretations to match its soundness.

So you believes the fact that NM Dales clock according to him gives the right aswer because he says so and the clock could be never wrong?  But look at the picture. After 5 minutes and 5 seconds you can just see that the big arm will be just before the twelve after 5 minutes and the three is still about on the same spot. it will be around three O clock then. So clearly the big arm and the small arm difference is about 15 minutes and not 20. The second arm and the big arm they are about 20 and the small arm and the seconds arm are then about 25.  This can t be right, even my son of 7 can tell that.

Avatar of sameez1

@n9531l I was trying to see if your graph would point to a time other than 12 when all three hands would be exactly together I am wondering if each relation of the three hands together exactly are unique for the whole 12 hour period there will be times when they appear together but they will be off won't they.The time I was asking just puts the minute and hour hand together.A Sam Loyd unanswered puzzle He is laughing right now,look at where some of the arguments are going.Gotta love it.

Avatar of RubenHogenhout
n9531l schreef:
sameez1 wrote:

@ 9531l what time will the M be exactly 40 again will it take 12 hours or does it work out at 1:05:25 approximately.

It will get back to 40 and beyond. I was wrong when I said it won't go above 40. I didn't think much about the highly unequally spaced case and didn't consider what would happen when one hand is on the low side and the other two are a little below 60. M has a local maximum of 50.3 at 4:54:55. After 12 noon, M first gets back to 40 at 3:43:43.69.

Of course this is unrelated to the solution, which depends on finding the times when M is close to zero.

 

A genius analyse you give. This 1h 5minutes and 25 seconds answer gives me an intuition that this could be the answer that was ment!

If the small arm is about on the 4, the big arm about on the 12 and the seconds arm about on the 8 then all differences are 20 minutes. 

But helaas this must be the case then after 1 hour and 5 seconds? 

Because then the second arm is just before the 8, the big arm just before the 12 and the small just before the 4. Isn t the answer  about 1 hour and 5 seconds? rather then 1 hour and 25 seconds?

 

Avatar of sameez1
Arisktotle wrote:

The tell-tale sign is that nobody found an official solution nor the story of what happened with the prizes. Can only mean the puzzle collapsed due to diverse interpretations. I bet it was withdrawn before its closure date.

 I bet it sold a lot of watches. I am kind of new to actually paying attention to puzzles since I have some free time,now just discovering Sam Loyd what adjective can I use?Unbelievable genius with a streak of mischief.

Avatar of RubenHogenhout

I just only rotate the clock and keeps all the arms on the same place.

So the diferences must keep the same then.

I get  it is just seconds before it is 5 minutes before 4 O clock.

 

No wait, it is almost 4 O clock. So after one hour plus 5 minutes and 5 seconds.  phpHNgnAt.jpeg

Avatar of Oolalimk1
In thirty seconds from the time shown in the puzzle, the minute hand will be on 11, the second hand will be on 1, and the hour hand will be on 3, so they will appear at equal distance from each other. So the answer is 30 seconds. "Appear" is the key word.
Avatar of RubenHogenhout

phph4tdJ6.jpegOr straight up.

About 1 hour 5 minutes and 5 seconds is my answer.

Avatar of sameez1

@ oolalimk1 yes it doesn't say appear at the same angles as shown again, it says How soon will they again appear an equal distance apart.I do believe you caught the Sam Loyd trick.We are all looking only to an even 120 degrees LOL.I do believe that is the type of diversion he uses in his puzzles.I think you are right. I am curious how many agree.

Avatar of cobra91
n9531l wrote:

I thought keju's suggestion was a good one, and it does provide a counterexample to cobra91's proof that there is never even a single instant when the angular distances are all equal (comment #3). My objection to it as the solution is that there are sooner times when the hands will appear to be equal distances apart, and the puzzle asks how soon it will happen.

Arisktotle already said it (post #89, almost directly above yours), but it bears repeating since you seem to have a habit of ignoring details which are slightly "inconvenient": keju's suggestion does nothing to address the contradiction one arrives at when assuming ideally conventional behavior for all three hands. Specifically, one can still conclude that either the assumption of ideally conventional clock behavior is incorrect, or Sam Loyd's own illustration is incorrect.

So yes, "noon" could be interpretted as a counterexample to my earlier statement (depending on one's choice of formal definitions), but it's not a relevant counterexample with respect to Loyd's puzzle.

Avatar of n9531l

@Sameez1:  Thirty seconds after the starting time, the minute and second hands will be about 60 degrees apart, the second and hour hands will be about 60 degrees apart, and the minute and hour hands will be about 120 degrees apart. Hardly what I would call equal distances apart.