@5769
No: as soon as the winning h8=N is played black lets his time run out and gets a draw on chess.com.
If however white plays the drawing h8=Q? and black times out, then white gets a win on chess.com.
Shortest-proof-game challenge
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tygxc wrote:
@5769
No: as soon as the winning h8=N is played black lets his time run out and gets a draw on chess.com.
If however white plays the drawing h8=Q? and black times out, then white gets a win on chess.com.
Who denies that? Fortunately black cannot time out in a puzzle. Not even in a chess.com puzzle which is surprising 
EvinSung wrote:
#5772
17.0 moves. Is there a shorter way?
Some of our top solvers would like a tough one to work on.
Proof game in 41.5 (current record for longest unique SPG with no captures)
tygxc wrote:
@5769
No: as soon as the winning h8=N is played black lets his time run out and gets a draw on chess.com.
If however white plays the drawing h8=Q? and black times out, then white gets a win on chess.com.
Yeah that's a major problem on this site, that a side can deliberately lose on time and get a draw out of a forced mate - losing position. And it doesn't just apply to those unrealistic puzzles. It applies to simple mating patterns like this:
If let's say in a time scramble white pushes the pawn trying to make a queen, and black knows the mating sequence here, white at any point can just let his time tick to 0 and he gets a draw!
EndgameEnthusiast2357 wrote:
Yeah that's a major problem on this site, that a side can deliberately lose on time and get a draw out of a forced mate - losing position. And it doesn't just apply to those unrealistic puzzles. It applies to simple mating patterns like this:
If let's say in a time scramble white pushes the pawn trying to make a queen, and black knows the mating sequence here, white at any point can just let his time tick to 0 and he gets a draw!
Not on this site! Only on this site's games! Puzzles are not games and they can not be games. Even chess.com knows that - or they had added player clocks to puzzles and their engine analysis would give top scores to the "time-out move" after a knight promotion. But they don't. This is particularly interesting given that the engines do anticipate on a nearby "50-move expiration" and advise awkward moves to find a safe haven for a draw claim! (They did forget to add a claim button, haha!). But chess.com will only invoke a timeout rule with active player clocks in a game context - unavailable in puzzles.
Btw, the clock is just one of the many pieces of missing information in a puzzle presentation. You cannot solve those by referring to FIDE game rules or chess.com game rules. You need specific puzzle rules to fill in the gaps. Anybody ever seen the chess.com puzzle timeout rule?
An equally strong argument against applying chess.com's deviant game rules to puzzles is that many puzzles were created in and for other environments with FIDE and Composition rules. I have never even seen a puzzle created for chess.com's rules - though it is possible to make some.
Another misunderstanding is that chess.com has replaced some game rules because they are better than the FIDE-rules. Chess.com would love to live by the FIDE laws but they can't because they have no algorithms to imply helpmate analysis.
There are however two sides to the "insufficient mating material" rules. The one-sided timeout-version that triggers on timeout and the two-sided version which applies to every move. Like K+N vs K+N may be automatically drawn because the mating insufficiency applies to both sides, not just one. Interestingly, the draw outcomes in those cases are commonly correct unlike those in the timeout cases where one side often has overwhelming mating material! So it's not that much of a solution basher as one night believe.
Under the special condition that any piece which moves to the first rank cannot leave the first rank, how short a proof game can you find with the fewest number of units remaining, all on the first rank, where White to play can mate in one?
I made a 25-move game which meets the requirement, but I think it can be shorter.
:^
Arisktotle wrote:
An equally strong argument against applying chess.com's deviant game rules to puzzles is that many puzzles were created in and for other environments with FIDE and Composition rules. I have never even seen a puzzle created for chess.com's rules - though it is possible to make some.
Another misunderstanding is that chess.com has replaced some game rules because they are better than the FIDE-rules. Chess.com would love to live by the FIDE laws but they can't because they have no algorithms to imply helpmate analysis.
There are however two sides to the "insufficient mating material" rules. The one-sided timeout-version that triggers on timeout and the two-sided version which applies to every move. Like K+N vs K+N may be automatically drawn because the mating insufficiency applies to both sides, not just one. Interestingly, the draw outcomes in those cases are commonly correct unlike those in the timeout cases where one side often has overwhelming mating material! So it's not that much of a solution basher as one night believe.
That shouldn't be automatically declared a draw:
EndgameEnthusiast2357 wrote:
That shouldn't be automatically declared a draw:
I know! And somehow I knew this would be the content of your post before I saw it. Combination of a spiritual gift with a guilty conscience!
@5778
I presume white to play mates in one but the piece is then allowed to leave the first rank?
In that case the fewest number of units remaining is 3.
tygxc wrote:
@5778
I presume white to play mates in one but the piece is then allowed to leave the first rank?
In that case the fewest number of units remaining is 3.
Your position would quality, but I misworded my challenge. Here's what I intended it to be.
Under the special condition that any piece which moves to the first rank cannot leave the first rank, how short a proof game can you find with the fewest number of units remaining, all confined to the first rank, where White to play can mate in one?
With this correction, your position does not qualify.
EvinSung wrote:
#5783
This isn't a complete proof game, but it's a way to get to the end starting from a legal position.
@5784
"Under the special condition that any piece which moves to the first rank cannot leave the first rank, how short a proof game can you find with the fewest number of units remaining, all confined to the first rank, where White to play can mate in one?"
++ I still do not understand the challenge. In the position @5782:
- 3 units is the fewest number
- If Qd1 has not yet left the 1st rank, then she can checkmate Qh5#
tygxc wrote:
@5784
"Under the special condition that any piece which moves to the first rank cannot leave the first rank, how short a proof game can you find with the fewest number of units remaining, all confined to the first rank, where White to play can mate in one?"
++ I still do not understand the challenge. In the position @5782:
- 3 units is the fewest number
- If Qd1 has not yet left the 1st rank, then she can checkmate Qh5#
Did you notice "all confined to the first rank"? The queen can't move to h5 if confined to the first rank.
@5763
Fun fact: chess.com would declare the game drawn for insufficient material once white plays the winning h8=N.
Fortunately only after black times out. Which of course we won't let happen in a puzzle!