Shortest-proof-game challenge

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Avatar of dhruvstrathaim
Arisktotle wrote:
dhruvstrathaim wrote:
n9531l1 wrote:
#925

what about

This is an illegal proof game by FIDE law as the position is "dead" (no one can checkmate the other side) after 17. .. Kxe7 which terminates the game automatically in a draw. To get the final diagram legally you'll need to make the rook capture as the final move on e8!

This issue has recently been discovered by the retro-community though I've known it for 15 years. It caused problems in standard compositions which were drawn before the point designated by the author. I think they changed the rule now or are in the process of doing so. One of these days I'll look where they have gone with it. Probably the wrong way as they have a habit of doing.

Note that "dead positions" are a basic FIDE law (article 5.2.2) and not some weird "competition rule" or "Codex convention".

ohh okay! I did not even realize that

Avatar of Arisktotle
n9531l1 wrote:

True, and that was noted when this game was posted a couple of years ago. Article 17A of the Codex says "Unless expressly stipulated, the rule of dead position does not apply to the solution of chess compositions except for retro-problems." This being a retro-problem, the dead position rule does apply.

Yes, I haven't been paying attention lately. This was changed in the 2015 Codex, it wasn't there before. The problem is that no-one cares to define what a retro-problem is - though some types are recognizable as retro by their stipulations. The weird part is that problems running into this issue can always be considered retro-problems for the simple reason that they ran into this issue. To find out what the author intended you first need to solve it and then reverse engineer that this was probably not a retro-problem! A questionable approach to rulings. Note that standard non-retro-problems need some retro-conventions as well, e.g. to find out about castling and e.p. right and who's on move.

Btw, all these issues could be resolved by introducing the habit to announce retro / non-retro type with the stipulation as soon as there could be the slightest doubt. And the author could use it to place compositions in a different category than would be assumed by default! Then a proof game such as this one could be treated as either a retro- or a non-retro problem.

Btw2, proof games are the least retro-type of all composition types anywhere! The retro-conventions are typically required to provide "choice rules" to fill in unknown states. But proof games are purely retro-analytical and have no unknown states whatsoever! Unlike standard two-movers or endgame studies which may demand access to retro-conventions! So proof games ought to be classified as non-retro with regard to the retro conventions. And then article 17A will save proof games such as the one discussed.

So we arrive at the retro-analytical "release the position" (which is a proof game) type by a detour. Typically the retro-conventions do NOT apply to the retro-analytical type. Nothing is known about states of castling, e.p. or who is on move. You have total freedom to retract whatever you like as long as it is "legal"! This is the place for proof games as well: retro-problems solved without retro-conventions and with pure Sherlock Holmes analytical deductions! Btw, Smullyan in his retro-books never assumed any "choice rules" for the unknowns. No conventions!

Avatar of Rocky64
BishopTakesH7 wrote:

Second challenge: find the fastest position where white/black to move is mate, but the queens never move and the queens are not the mating pieces.

I found a few 4.5-move games but couldn't get it down to 4.0. Here's one where the diagram is reached via a unique sequence.

Annoying thing is that Black can even have a spare move...

Avatar of BishopTakesH7

Third challenge: find the fastest white/black mate where the pawns never move.

Avatar of EndgameEnthusiast2357
Avatar of EndgameEnthusiast2357
Avatar of Arisktotle
Rocky64 wrote:

I found a few 4.5-move games but couldn't get it down to 4.0. Here's one where the diagram is reached via a unique sequence (diagram 1) Annoying thing is that Black can even have a spare move...(diagram 2)

The spare move exists and can't be denied unless you can shorten the proof game. But Rocky's last version can be undualed in an elegant alternative:

.

Avatar of n9531l1

Here's a position EvinSung posted in the Illegal Position thread, presumably thinking it's illegal. How short a proof game can you find for it?

Avatar of Rocky64

Just noticed a 4.5-move solution is possible with pawn moves only, including promotion mates!

Avatar of dhruvstrathaim
n9531l1 wrote:

Here's a position EvinSung posted in the Illegal Position thread, presumably thinking it's illegal. How short a proof game can you find for it?

It is illegal because the black king has no waiting moves after the pawns get into formation

Avatar of Leither123
dhruvstrathaim wrote:
n9531l1 wrote:

Here's a position EvinSung posted in the Illegal Position thread, presumably thinking it's illegal. How short a proof game can you find for it?

It is illegal because the black king has no waiting moves after the pawns get into formation

Black king can come from b6:

Avatar of BishopTakesH7
Leither123 wrote:
n9531l1 wrote:

Here's a position EvinSung posted in the Illegal Position thread, presumably thinking it's illegal. How short a proof game can you find for it?

Black king can come from b6:

This should give someone ideas.

Avatar of dhruvstrathaim
Leither123 wrote:
dhruvstrathaim wrote:
n9531l1 wrote:

Here's a position EvinSung posted in the Illegal Position thread, presumably thinking it's illegal. How short a proof game can you find for it?

It is illegal because the black king has no waiting moves after the pawns get into formation

Black king can come from b6:

Wow! I did not even see the possibility of waiting to capture.

Avatar of RewanDemontay
BishopTakesH7 wrote:
Leither123 wrote:
n9531l1 wrote:

Here's a position EvinSung posted in the Illegal Position thread, presumably thinking it's illegal. How short a proof game can you find for it?

Black king can come from b6:

This should give someone ideas.

38.5 so far.

Avatar of n9531l1
RewanDemontay wrote:
n9531l1 wrote: Here's a position EvinSung posted in the Illegal Position thread, presumably thinking it's illegal. How short a proof game can you find for it?

38.5 so far.

I had made a 43.5 move game to make sure it was legal and wanted to see how much shorter it could get.

Avatar of Arisktotle
n9531l1 wrote:

Here's a position EvinSung posted in the Illegal Position thread, presumably thinking it's illegal. How short a proof game can you find for it?

Interestingly EvinSungs "illegal position" in the other thread has the king on d6. Now it is on h8 - probably because this position is "legal". But that change is unnecessary since EvinSungs "illegal" version with the king on d6 in the Illegal Position topic as #7725 is also legal! See my post there.

Avatar of n9531l1
Arisktotle wrote:
n9531l1 wrote:

Here's a position EvinSung posted in the Illegal Position thread, presumably thinking it's illegal. How short a proof game can you find for it?

Interestingly EvinSungs "illegal position" in the other thread has the king on d6. Now it is on h8 - probably because this position is "legal".

Actually, the king is on h8 here because that's where it was before EvinSung changed the position again to move it to d6 in an unsuccessful attempt to make the position illegal.

Avatar of Arisktotle
n9531l1 wrote:

Actually, the king is on h8 here because that's where it was before EvinSung changed the position again to move it to d6 in an unsuccessful attempt to make the position illegal.

I thought something like that but I couldn't reconstruct the history with EvinSung changing the diagrams!

Avatar of Leither123

This forum has been oddly silent for the past two days. Here's a fun little position I made; can you beat my solution?

Avatar of Leither123

Rocky's solutions to the fastest white/black mate were impressive! Here's another 4.5 solution in which the existence of the black rook and knight are really annoying me: