classical chess is for crippled old birds

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Avatar of Zycirline
CooloutAC wrote:
llama51 wrote:

Not only is it conventional wisdom, but it's just common sense.

If you want to be fast and accurate, you first have to practice being slow and accurate... that's not just chess that's anything.

 

practice being slow to be fast?   Thats the opposite of common sense.   To reference Christopher Yoo again.  He developed his fast intution,  pattern recognition,  etc  by doing puzzle rush bud.  not playing classical lol.

I will have to disagree. Many other sports require you to be accurate slow first, before being accurate fast. I took piano lessons for about 6 years; my teacher(s) (two) both constantly told me to slow down, since when I played fast I Was missing notes. 

When I played soccer, when our coach would teach us a new technique, he would first show us, and we would go through the motion slowly. Slowly, many times, before speeding it up.

"Why does slowing down work so well? ... First, going slow allows you to attend more closely to errors, creating a higher degree of precision... 

As Tom Martinez likes to say, 'It's not how fast you can do it, it's how slow you can do it correctly.'

Second, going slow helps the practicer to develop something more important: A working perception of the skill's internal blueprints."

-Daniel Coyle, "The Talent Code" 

Avatar of Ziryab
CooloutAC wrote:
InsertInterestingNameHere wrote:

When you do something slow, you are able to do it well, and eventually it becomes muscle memory, then you are able to do it fast.

 

No,  the more times you do it the more times it becomes muscle memory.   Doing it slow means you won't do it as much.  Doing it slow is only learning how to do it in the first place,  but not necessarily at doing it fast.   This is why alot of these pros do the puzzle rush.   Its also what these kids are doing nowadays to improve their "muscle memory"  Playing classical is literally the opposite of what you want to achieve imo.

 

The problem with not doing it right, but doing it repeatedly, is that your "muscle memory" has become a hard habit to break. Blitz reinforces error.

Avatar of llama51
CooloutAC wrote:

No,  the more times you do it the more times it becomes muscle memory.   Doing it slow means you won't do it as much.

There's an old saying, "practice doesn't make perfect. Practice makes permanent."

It's important to practice being slow and accurate.

Avatar of Jalex13
Cooloutac, my point is that your quoting of professional players is invalid since your level of playing is much different: hence it does not apply. I’m not trying to insult your playing skill, I am using it to show a visible flaw behind your opinion.
Also, I’m not arguing. I’m completely relaxed…not sure about you though.
Avatar of InsertInterestingNameHere

I play badminton a decent bit. When I try and teach anyone, their first mistake is just throwing the birdie up, aiming at it blindly, then totally missing it. I have no idea if their hand eye coordination is just bad but you have to learn a skill slowly first before jumping right into it, or else you will fail since you have little understanding of what you are doing.

Avatar of Zycirline
InsertInterestingNameHere wrote:

I play badminton a decent bit. When I try and teach anyone, their first mistake is just throwing the birdie up, aiming at it blindly, then totally missing it. I have no idea if their hand eye coordination is just bad but you have to learn a skill slowly first before jumping right into it, or else you will fail since you have little understanding of what you are doing.

that's my younger brother lmao

Avatar of Zycirline
CooloutAC wrote:
InsertInterestingNameHere wrote:

When you do something slow, you are able to do it well, and eventually it becomes muscle memory, then you are able to do it fast.

 

No,  the more times you do it the more times it becomes muscle memory.   Doing it slow means you won't do it as much.  Doing it slow is only learning how to do it in the first place,  but not necessarily at doing it fast.   This is why alot of these pros do the puzzle rush.   Its also what these kids are doing nowadays to improve their "muscle memory"  Playing classical is literally the opposite of what you want to achieve imo.

The pros do puzzle rush because they are already good. 

But as you want to progress in blitz, you will eventually have to learn to play better chess. Many top GM blitz games resemble classical games. As for the rest of us? We still need to learn how to play chess accurately first.

Avatar of InsertInterestingNameHere

“you are acting as if high accuracy determines your skill level in chess.”

IT LITERALLY DOES THOUGH LMAO

Avatar of Jalex13
As you mention muscle memory. If your doing body weight workouts for example push-ups: slow push-ups will decrease your reps (let’s say 10). Fast push-ups will allow you to do 30 push-ups. In the long run, guess who will benefit more? The person doing slow push-ups. Once again your reasoning is flawed/invalid.
Avatar of llama51
CooloutAC wrote:

I can't consider what the Super Grandmaster say about the game

You've quoted many grandmasters in this topic, it's true.

I'm waiting for you to quote one that supports your point.

Avatar of Stil1

How you play the game is less important than how you study the game, in my opinion.

Studying is the secret to improvement. It's where the majority of your learning happens. And that's a separate activity that doesn't involve playing.

If you really want to improve, playing should be used to practice what you've already studied - to test your lines, to experiment with your ideas. Not lines and ideas that you think of in the moment - but lines and ideas that you've studied beforehand.

If you aren't studying, then you're probably relying on trial and error. Just trying to "figure it out" on your own. This means improvement is going to be relatively slow, regardless of whether you play classical or blitz . . .

Avatar of Zycirline
CooloutAC wrote:
B1ZMARK wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
llama51 wrote:

Not only is it conventional wisdom, but it's just common sense.

If you want to be fast and accurate, you first have to practice being slow and accurate... that's not just chess that's anything.

 

practice being slow to be fast?   Thats the opposite of common sense.   To reference Christopher Yoo again.  He developed his fast intution,  pattern recognition,  etc  by doing puzzle rush bud.  not playing classical lol.

I will have to disagree. Many other sports require you to be accurate slow first, before being accurate fast. I took piano lessons for about 6 years; my teacher(s) (two) both constantly told me to slow down, since when I played fast I Was missing notes. 

When I played soccer, when our coach would teach us a new technique, he would first show us, and we would go through the motion slowly. Slowly, many times, before speeding it up.

"Why does slowing down work so well? ... First, going slow allows you to attend more closely to errors, creating a higher degree of precision... 

As Tom Martinez likes to say, 'It's not how fast you can do it, it's how slow you can do it correctly.'

Second, going slow helps the practicer to develop something more important: A working perception of the skill's internal blueprints."

-Daniel Coyle, "The Talent Code" 

 

Thats because it is not  a sport.   Again,  you are acting as if high accuracy determines your skill level in chess.  It does not.   Only your win/loss/draw does.  And do I really have to quote Levon and Hikaru again for you?  Or Findegold?  
[]
Again,  noone is saying that classical is not easier for beginners.   But to then at the same time claim it is more advanced and difficult.  is a contradiction.  Even according to your piano analogy.

Of course, a single game's accuracy does not determine your skill level in chess, I acknowledge that. However, if you are able to be consistently more accurate than your opponent, you are probably improving or at the very least better than your opponent.

Slow chess aims to practice being accurate; once you are accurate enough at a certain part (let us use rook and king vs king endgame), you will be able to play it fast.

For example, top players can play really well really fast when up an entire piece. An 800 will probably blunder the extra piece away. 

My point is, you practice being accurate; therefore, when you play blitz, you can play accurately faster, thus improving at blitz.

Avatar of Jalex13
I didn’t say building muscle. I said “benefit more”.
Avatar of InsertInterestingNameHere

As much as I say everything, I doubt we’re ever gonna convince you. You aren’t going to change your opinion simply because some dudes on an online forum told you that you were wrong. And honestly, I can’t even remember what we’re talking about in the first place lol

Avatar of Jalex13
Your literally missing the whole point dude. The point is your viewpoint is wrong! It’s like a person wearing glasses that have fogged up. Anyways I’m done this is quite hopeless.
Avatar of llama51
Stil1 wrote:

How you play the game is less important than how you study the game, in my opinion.

Studying is the secret to improvement. It's where the majority of your learning happens. And that's a separate activity that doesn't involve playing.

If you really want to improve, playing should be used to practice what you've already studied - to test your lines, to experiment with your ideas. Not lines and ideas that you think of in the moment - but lines and ideas that you've studied beforehand.

If you aren't studying, then you're probably relying on trial and error. Just trying to "figure it out" on your own. This means improvement is going to be relatively slow, regardless of whether you play classical or blitz . . .

Nice post, and you know, there are some things in my life I'm not good at (or knowledgeable about) because I enjoy the (as you put it) trial and error. I don't want to study for 100s of hours, I want to enjoy discovering things on my own, even if that means I'm stuck discovering beginner level things.

I think this might be one reason people get stuck below certain ratings.

Avatar of Zycirline

Yes, that is studying, and good studying. However, I am merely talking about someone spending all their time playing blitz + bullet + puzzle rush. Studying books and repeating puzzles (accurately!) until you can do them instantly is different.

Avatar of llama51
CooloutAC wrote:

every pro player and commentator I have seen talk about the subjects have confirmed what I believe 

This is... the literal definition of "confirmation bias" tongue.png

 

Avatar of Jalex13
We got an expert on chess study here though everyone listen up
Avatar of Jalex13
At this point I think he’s trolling cause every comment has me cracking up to be honest