If the universe requires a creator then the creator should require a creator = religion is made-up

Lol...ok mr tooth fairy point taken :)

Bullshit topic 

Christianity: the belief that a cosmic, Jewish zombie, who is also his own father, can grant you eternal life if you telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master, by removing an evil force from your soul which exists in all humans, because a rib-woman was once convinced by a talking snake to eat a magic apple from an enchanted tree.

Another (supposed) intellect trying to make an argument about something they will probably never grasp. Spiritual things cannot be discerned intellectually. The op is lacking the one thing that all those that believe in God have. That is faith. His assumption is correct, however, though he discards it as false and illogical. God did have a creator and He had a creator and so on to the beginning. The question is why would someone get hung up on when and how it all started? What difference does it make? Even it you knew the answer to that the real question should be do you believe in God? And that requires faith and a discerning mind and heart. Again, spiritual things cannot be discerned intellectually. Name calling doesn't help to support your point either, quantumlee.

I used to believe in a creator...

I knew you wouldn't have any evidence of supernature!  So, this shows that 1)its illogical to believe that supernature created anything since there is no evidence of supernature and 2)its logical to believe natural processes created the universe.

I admitted that this universe was created.........in other words there is a creator figure, i.e. NATURE!

So now you want to back track and claim that there is no creator figure?

Maybe a supernatural creator does exist, but all the evidence is natural which suggests a natural creator.

This is an extreme example of burden of proof swapping.

I think we're caught in an endless loop everyone. The materialists believes that science will eventually solve everything (after they die - so alotta good it'll do then) and the creationist wants an answer....and wants it right now (can't blame them - can you ?). Kinda hilariously paradoxical, dontcha feel ?

I leave you with this my luv's (well, actually I'm not going anywhere....)

****

Betting it All

There came his voice from I knew not where

visiting upon occasion

firm in command yet soft as a wisp

he warned, "discover not thyself"

So to challenge his voice - like a wagerer's choice

I did what his words told me not.

I sought a god….(I'll be back later - cya !....skippity doo dah....skippity aye....my oh my what a wonderful nite !........)

I found scarletta skies and cinnamon hills

and trees happy verdant in green

I found lavendar lillies befriending the sun

and oceans in ultramarine 

I'm back !....to a day filled with color

a lucky one call me you could

I silenced the man whose voice I once heard

and discovered myself.... 

as Pascal reasoned I should.

****

TY Blaise....I will luv u 4ever !

You are right, I was confusing you with another poster. My apologies.

Well, since the only evidence we have is natural processes..........why should I believe something different? Why should I believe the universe was created by alien processes when there is no evidence of aliens? Why should I believe the universe was created supernaturally, when there is no evidence of supernatural?

I don't have to explain what natural processes............since we have evidence of natural processes. We can conclude that the universe was created naturally, until you can provide evidence it was created some other way besides naturally. But we both know you can't do this.

Not sure why its so hard for you to grasp such a rudimentary idea! Dont WANT to understand or simply CANT understand? Which is it?

I hope you prove that its because you dont WANT to understand because the other doesn't make you look too good.

No the burden of proof is crucial in science. It says that the fact I fail to prove you're wrong, doesn't automatically make a proof you're right.

For example I cannot prove that there isn't a spacecraft orbiting around proxima centauri. Do you conclude automatically that because of that failure, such a spacecraft exists?  No of course.
Same goes for religion.

That's quite simple: If you cannot have your thing *APPEAR*, then, as a non-believer, I DO NOT aknowledge that its existence is *evidence* based. And then I wont change my mind about it.

"It exists" means It actually exists,i.e.  it is HERE.

Another thing: The whole topic is not exactly about the existence of a creator. It is specifically about a recurring argument that has been proposed as evidence of it: "nothing can exist without being created". This argument is nothing but garbage and is properly debunked by OP .

Well since there is no evidence of supernatural forces and all we have is natural forces...........its quite logical to believe it was created naturally.

Now, why on earth would I need proof for "beliefs"?  HINT:  I don't.  Why on earth would I need proof in order to believe, when beliefs are based on evidence??

Proof is needed for it be known, evidence is needed for it to be believed.

Since there is evidence of natural forces, I do not need proof in order to beleive it was created naturally.

You are confusing "known" with 'belief" and the requirements of each.

Our very existence is God. That's the whole idea of God. Many people misunderstand what God is. We are all the Godhead, that's the thing, we're just pretending that we're not. We do not want to remember cause it makes things more complicated. What is forgotten can be remembered just as easily. When I went through my first spiritual journey, I had a vision of my third eye opening two days prior. I had heard about this in myths and legends but never in my society. That night I got scared, I didn't know what was going on. I asked myself for help and I gleaned a very interesting piece of advice from a helping spirit. "I is gone, We are now." What I was doing here was called Shamanic Journeying; most people induce a trance to actually meet with the spirits but some people can convene with spirits in their plane in times of great distress. Not everyone, but some. Shamanic Journeying is weird though, I suggest you look it up because I have only just begun with it. 

There is evidence. Look up Shamanic Journeying. Communing with spirits has been going for thousands of years in every culture including our own.

There is no evidence for god.  But if you are gullible and scared, then you will believe in a god without evidence and call it "faith" while pretending that "faith" and "belief" are on the same playing field.

Sorry, but shamanic journeying isn't proof or evidence of a god. Sorry that you think it is evidence. Sad!

I think some of have some learning to do. You can start with Maslov 101. His pyramid points to the heavens....and self-transcendence floats in a popcorn cloud (near a buttery sun over the salten sea....seen any good movies lately ?) above the very tippy-top of the self-actualization part. And FYI, he died w/out warning....so he knew S-T was needed to complete, say, Jack the Human Bean........

So grow baby grow !

Good nitey nite nite everyone....close my eyes here for an hour....I have the day off....yay !