nirvana & meditation

   The world is full of smart people. Intelligence, however...

   Let us not postulate something other than a self, like the 'mind', which may simply be...still the self in disguise. For the moment there is nothing but the self--it doesn't have to be a coherent separate entity which is believed to be, but whatever it is because here we tended to reject it conceptually--it's all one has. That's the starting point.

  To say it doesn't exist when it's all one has--in the beginning--is to attempt to escape the problem.

  I'm sure this is not clear enough, so it needs more polishing.

  The concept of impermanence is absolutely meaningless: one gets lost in concepts. Or the concept of the self.

  To see intellectually that nothing is impermanent is meaningless. It can logically be seen. It has the same value as seeing logically that getting drunk every night kills one, and despite that, one keeps getting drunk every night.

  Seeing an illusion intellectually is to miss it completely.

   Or one may not be clear as to what the illusion really is, thinking that one thing is an illusion, when in fact something else is.

  What do you call the self?

my understanding of mindfulness is that it means to be in the present moment. Not thinking about the past or future. I don't think that a person has to focus on anything in particular to be in the now.

Actually I do have something I focus on when I am observing my thoughts. 

I focus on my mind conceptualising problems and solutions. So perhaps that's an anchor to staying present. Even some kind of meditation as I'm focussing on a particular thing. 

Having said all that I accept your general point that to be conscious of thought is perhaps not to meditate. Meditation is about being free of thought I guess. 

Anyway I did my best to describe my experience and confusion.

Mindfulness is a well known pratice. I'm not sure if it's generally considered the same thing as meditation. I guess not. 

For me anyway I just don't problem solve and that keeps me in a clear mind and present. 

I'll catch you up troy thank you. (and sa!) . Also md. (sad face). 

As expected you've missed the point and twisted it to fit your preconceived notions that you already "know" to be true. And with that I'm done here. You want a meaningful response, reread my posts.

Tom... cut the crap. You are not interested in meditation. Your response awhile back saying, "no thought is the same as being unconscious, I may as well be dead" sums up it up nicely. You would "meditate" your way.

I warned you, incorrect and unguided attempts would lead to harming your mind. I think you have passed the event horizon, the point of no return.

Groove Master takes the time to spell it out, many of his points gave been said by myself and others with no disagreement by anyone, except your pig headed ignorance, twisting everybody's words to suit your uncomprehending mind.

Being "mindful or observing your thoughts" are just words for you. I'm very sure it has no meaning to you except as hocus pocus, now you see me now you dont. 1 problem, you can fool some of the people some of the time, but not all the people all of the time. LOL..you've fooled nobody tom.

GrooveMaster writes:

Meditation allows you to see how pointless and cyclical most of your thoughts are. Meditation is about putting faith in the fact that the absence of contemplation is the ultimate truth. Contemplation in circles (like you are doing) brings obsession and madness into the fore.

Read this tom... 10 times

then 10 times again

and if you can't get by then

put on your dunce cap, stand at the chalk board

and write 1000 times:

I am a fool, the biggest dog gone fool in the world.

OCD. .. obsessive compulsive disorder

Tom writes : I focus on my mind conceptualising problems and solutions. So perhaps that's an anchor to staying present. Even some kind of meditation as I'm focussing on a particular thing.

And then tom writes:

For me anyway I just don't problem solve and that keeps me in a clear mind and present.

A clear mind ? Lmao 1st he is "conceptualising problems and solutions". 2nd.. He is in the "present" by not solving!

A true genius.An extroidinary mind.

I've found, as I'm sure a few others are also aware; That one has a higher degree of contentedness, {if you will}.. when they're getting, somewhat-to-noticeably sleepy! ..{whether or not that merits a '!' mark} ..

.. But in any event; The technique for being 'cool-calm-and-collected'/ deadening, of ones own self-awareness - Does Not require, the same diligent effort, when one is 'drowsy' from the supposed oncoming 'need' for sleep!

And, on that basis.. Perhaps, those seeking that increased sense, of 'mental peace'.. Should, as an experiment perhaps .. See how long they can stay Modestly {my emphasis}, sleep deprived - Assuming that having 'Peace-of-mind'.. is a Primary, sought after goal! ..{just a thought!}. .. Amen .. {ha!}

I call what you're referring to 'Tom' - As the " 'Yasser' Impermanence Factor" ..{named after "Yasser Seirawan"}.. Whom, in the early 1970s, was, an arcing ever upward, in chess talent, pre-and early teen, chess 'whipper-snapper'; And now, {like everyone else who went before him}.. He has since seen his 'premier' level, chess competence, desert him - Through, No fault primarily, of his own.

Once again - I motion, that 'entropy' - From henceforth be re-named, as the " 'Yasser' Impermanence Factor"!  0:

unhappy with the fleeting nature of everything and the impending demise of his own physical existence, man invented words and fixed their meanings to invent a pseudo permanence, then filled his mind with them to achieve pseudo immortality and invent permanent truth.

Not, B-a-d! .. As far as critiquing, in a larger context! ..But, I wonder how far, you would want to extend that argument to{!?} .. Not, that it's not your perogative, which it is! .. Ie. Does not mankinds conscience, {the one that tends to become 'calloused' with 'growing up'}; Not represent, an imperfect image, of the Divine's imprint?!

The whole World, awaits your response - My 'inter-play' Too!  [ ;