The limits of science

Sqod, your post is a candidate for the thickest comment ever on the Internet, i was simply quoting an expert on the subject.

I'm awaiting your reference.

Live is more than just material world.For example is the tree could only consume non living things for it to lives.Intuitively the tree will need more energy than it have consumed per day considering it's physical burden in a day.Live is the spirit for lifes.

I think a higher living forms could consume non living things food.

Unfortunately the length of time I would need to 'convince' many of those folks posting on this thread that G*d does exist - is not available to me.  It would take many hours of explanation and teaching, and sources etc - and I just dont have the time.  A few quick points however that may help clarify

• Judaism records that approximately 2 million people witnessed G*d directly - and were killed and resurrected by the experience due to the sheer power of proximity.  If you think about it from a logical perspective for a moment -to suggest to the inhabitants of a country that they must now follow 613 complicated laws that restrict their lives in almost every aspect because of an event that no one remembers happening 40, 200, 500 or 3000 years ago is not tenable. Just to start having people follow such laws requires that they have some direct experience, otherwise, it wont work
• There were multiple instances of both direct experience of G*d throughout the time that Jews lived in Israel - and some were recorded by external sources - such as Romans.  In the 2nd Temple era - sadly corruption was rampant. On one day a year - the Kohen Gadol was to go into the 'Holy of Holies' where literally G*d resided - and present incense.  Roman soldiers recorded that during this time - Jews started tying ropes around the Kohen Gadol because he would often die in the Holy of Holies.  Instant death.  In addition there are numerous recorded instances in which for one Tzadik birds would burst into flame if he were to study Torah while walking - and they crossed his path.  In another example (and there are thousands) G*d's voice echoed through the land to attempt to settle a dispute regarding halacha with respect to oven construction.
• Recently a Torah scroll was discovered that is over 2000 years old.  They could not open it otherwise it would disintegrate - so they imaged it (MRI).  It's exactly the same as a Torah from today.
• The Talmud cites that the moon came from the earth - that was how G*d created it - and that has largely been agreed to be accurate
• Recently both NASA and Germany (not sure which group) undertook to determine the exact number of days in a month.  The calculation was the same as the Jewish Calculation thousands of years ago to 6 decimal places.
• Every prophecy given by the Torah has now been fullfilled -everything from Jews being expelled from the Holy Land, to the horrors that would befall them if they did not follow the Torah.  I wont go into details because most here would not be able to understand

I could go on and on.  Be assured however that G*d does actually exist.  He retracted himself such that its difficult for us to find him - in order that we make our choices, and choose what we want in this world - either we want good, or we want 'bad'.

'Bad' isnt what you think however- bad is selfishness.  Last lesson for you - G*d gives of himself constantly to sustain the Universe - giving of his life force, giving of his focus, giving to us to sustain the reality in which he makes.  Every blade of grass he concentrates on, every breeze, every person and every animal and insect to will them into existance - CONSTANTLY.  He wishes for us to learn this - so that we may sustain our own planets at a later time.

I lied -one last lesson - G*d isnt some dude with a beard and sandals - if you have to think of something - think of the most pure form of energy - but infinitely more complex.

Thinking of God as energy but infinitely more complex is dangerous.  It leads to an assumption that he is open to scientific investigation.

Do you think that reasons for believing can be proven scientifically?

I no longer doubt the existence of God.  I just don't believe it is possible to scientifically explore or prove his existence.  Those who subscribe to Intelligent Design have many valid reasons for postulating a God, but I think they are wrong to claim scientific proof.

Okay, I se where you are going with this, i think.

But you should try reading up on Quantum Physics. Those folks never know what is going to happen next!

So instead, they have devised hghly complex mathematical formulas, to determine what might happen next. And assing odds, to any possible outcome.

If fact, their equations are so quirky, that they have since been borrowed by economists, to try to predict the stock market, of all things!

I'm serious.

So to my point, a Science (such as psychology) is still by definition a Science, even if all it can give is probabilities and percentages, rather than actual straight answers.

thousands have people say that they've seen Elvis Presley alive that doesn't mean he's alive. two million people can easily fool themselves  misinterpreting something into it being god. the rest of it doesn't make sense.

you have no proof of any of this stuff happening. all i have is your word.

the torah was read by jews for a very lond time. jews would read the torah 2000 years ago. it does nothing to prove god's existence.

someone said the moon came from the earth and that he was correct. that was really just a lucky guess loads of jews in the past would've been wrong about the creation of the moon. also why didn't god just make the moon rather than create the earth. remove part of it and make it the moon.

maths existed in the past as well. 

i wouldn't go into the details either. as people would find it to be silly.

 god loves his belivers that's why he let people like hitler torture millions of his favourate people because he loves them and wishes nothing but good upon them.

Sure.  I am not saying that Psychology has no scientific qualities, only that I believe humans are both material and spiritual and that Psychology cannot quantify the spiritual part or even determine if it exists.

Now if we are talking about probabilities like they use in quantum mechanics or even pure statistics as a way to determine if man has a spirit or if God exists that is another matter.  What is the probability that a conscious being will be kicked up out of the primordial slime if there is no God?  To me that probability is low but I am not going to now say I have Scientific proof for God because conscious beings exist.

My original point was that we should not look to Science as a tool to prove or disprove God.  We should look to reason yes, but not to Science.

That reminds me. 

In just the last few years, new evidence has turned up, uggesting there is a strong possibility that amino acids exist on Titan. (The largest moon of Saturn.)

If that turns out to be true, it would mean that Abiogenesis happened not only once, but twice, in our very own solar system!!

The Bible, (and I would assume the Torah, I would know for sure) also say that the Earth was covered in oceans of first, and that the continents rose up out of those waters.

Nowadays Scientists believe exacty that.

Kinda cool coincidence, huh?

intermediatedinoz

Predictive power is considered to be a valid arguement for the viability of a given theory.

But granted, the moon/continent thing is still pretty thin, by themselves.

But its a start.

The presence of amino acids does not mean abiogenesis has occurred.  They are just the ingredients for theoretical abiogenesis.

Can we prove the reasons for believing scientifically? It would depend on your belief of what constitutes proof.  For those that choose not to believe - there is nothing anyone could offer to prove G*d's existence to them - short of G*d coming directly to them and even then they may disbelieve that.

We do have to remember that G*d created science as well.  Every person that is 'celebrated' in the scientific community for their great discovery - we have to understand - that 'great discovery' was given by G*d.  So when we say whether we can prove certain things scientifically - G*d will not allow a definitive proof for His existence scientifcially.

Why? which is a natural question

Because if you could prove G*d's existence scientifically or by another method with certainty - that would be the 'end'.  The purpose is the ability to choose between what is selfless and what is selfish - to either follow G*d's will or not follow G*d's will in his absence.  IF you know about G*d it ceases to become a test - and hence no real reward can be gathered.

So what?

Within Shamayim - the way it works is that you can work and study and behave perfectly, but your ability to ascend your station or be closer to G*d is very limtied. Thousands or millions of years you can work with little to no gain.  Here you can make massive leaps quickly based on your behaviour.

Hence - you cannot really prove in the way you are thinking the existence of G*d.  It works differently.  If you see it a little differently it will help you understand.  The analogy in the Torah is learning to 'hear' G*d - and not 'see' G*d - its a metaphor - and yes G*d often communicates via symbolism and metaphor.

thousands have people say that they've seen Elvis Presley alive that doesn't mean he's alive. two million people can easily fool themselves  misinterpreting something into it being god. the rest of it doesn't make sense 

This again would be a long explanation - and wasnt the thrust of the point. I'll do my best - but again - please remember explaining something this complex would take many hours of discussion and learning on your part to apprehend what I am saying - but in short - the thrust was that in order to cause 2-3 million people (upwards of 8-10 million people depending on when we are talking about) to take on such a thing as 613 complex rules to govern their lives (there are 613 Mitzvot) - that governs every single aspect - you cant simply just come to them one day and say - "My acenstor had this experience by the way and this thing happened and you all just dont remember it and this is what we were told and now suddenly we must keep all of these rules! Sorryyou'veneverheardofitbeforebutitstrue"

The people would say - "Ya right - cute - now get out - Im late for the orgy".  As Im sure you are aware - Jewish people have a disproportiate representation amongst the 'smartest' people in the world.  It should be noted - that the Jews that you have seen on the international stage with respect to scientific acheivement wouldnt even be a candle next to the sun compared to many of of the Tazdikim, Sages and leaders of the Jewish people - even from the modern era (google the Rebbe Schneerson as a modern example of a Tzadik).  Why would I make this point?  You're talking about very intelligent people - who arent going to believe something without foundation - and thus them simply being duped into accepting such a complex rule set that requires constant study and labour isnt logical - that argument doesnt hold water.

Therefore - we know for the various reasons above that the 2+ million people that witnessed G*d actually witnessed G*d.

One of the keys of foundation to the Torah and being a Tzadik is being unfailingly honesty, purity, justice, righteousness and being scrupulous with observance of the Torah.  These people simply do not lie - and when coupled with the great miracles that were evoked around them that had countless witnesses, reports and recordings (some of them from external nations)- its undeniable that what they are telling us from the past is true.

We also know because of the accuracy and consistency of the Torah.  The message is consistent throughout the Torah and clear - and in fact its the only 'Religious' book that does not contain innacuracies and contradictions with respect to people places and experiences. 

Lastly - you should not just rely on my word.  If your heart is telling you that you need to investigate - good - go investigate.  Dig deep like I did.  I learned it all from scratch. I sat, I listened, I evaluated critcally, I thought critcially, I read - and I asked when I saw or heard what I thought was an inconsistency.  What I came up with is - its absolutely Emet - the truth.  Listen to Orthodox Lectures on Youtube.  If you are Jewish - Ill find a way to point you to an appropriate Rabbi.

the torah was read by jews for a very lond time. jews would read the torah 2000 years ago. it does nothing to prove god's existence.

This is not proof - as I indicated in another thread - there will never be one item that will say "Aha! G*d exists! definitive proof!" and I explain why there.   You should know however why this is important.  Torah scrolls are lovingly hand written - all Kosher Torah scrolls.  They are meticulously written - all 304, 805 letters.  If there is a single dot missing - the Torah scroll is invalid and cannot be used.  A Torah scroll today costs about $65,000 - $85,000 to write.  Why is this information important?  Firstly because there have been many accusations over the years that the Torah was assembled in bits and pieces by people over the years - that it could not have come from one source.  This clearly shows that for the last 2000 years - there have been no additions.  That is a very very long time - and lends strong support to the Divine nature of the Torah - but maybe that doesnt impress you.  If we take it a step further however - and realize that ALL kosher Torah scrolls in the world which have been copied many thousdands or hundreds of thousands of times by hand over the span of thousands of years - the probability of that happening shrinks significantly.  I havent done the cacluation but I would love it if someone would.   So if we combine this information - if Torah scribes have been so meticulous over the course of 2000 years as to ensure that not a single dot is missing during the course of thousands or hundreds of thousands copies - what is the probability that it came together in chunks?  Especially when it says "you shall not add or take away from it" - which has many meanings including - COPY IT EXACTLY. The probability shrinks yet further.

someone said the moon came from the earth and that he was correct. that was really just a lucky guess loads of jews in the past would've been wrong about the creation of the moon. also why didn't god just make the moon rather than create the earth. remove part of it and make it the moon.

It wasnt 'someone' - the Jews were provided the information by G*d - and its in the Talmud for all Jews to understand and read. Its kind of hard to go back on something like that once its published - so its so its a big risk to take if the 'someone' is wrong.  Why did G*d do that? I have no idea - and its not something important for me to understand or know.  G*d creates things for the best possible reason for us.

maths existed in the past as well.

They certainly did - but not super computers which was what was required in order to crunch the numbers by NASA and the German instiution. 

i wouldn't go into the details either. as people would find it to be silly.

Obviously you dont find it silly otherwise you wouldnt have taken the time to color code your responses or respond in the thread at all

 god loves his belivers that's why he let people like hitler torture millions of his favourate people because he loves them and wishes nothing but good upon them.

And now we come to the crux of your response.  The Torah is very clear about what will happen if they are unable or will not observe the Torah.  G*d keeps the universe and mankind in perfect balance.  Risk and reward need to equal eachother out. G*d constrains Himself and is 'held' so to speak by His own creation - and thus must follow His own rules - and the rules are clearly defined in the Torah.  He simply cannot abandon them if He chooses  - otherwise creation would implode on itself.  What does this mean? Its a complex topic - but the Jewish people were told many many times - in fact the entire 5th book of the Torah is G*d pleading with the Jewish people to PLEASE keep His Torah "If you would only but listen to My words that I am telling you today it will be well with you".

With great reward comes great risk.  G*d also promised that if the Jews listened to His Torah - they would be showered with wealth, blessings, peace and security - which happend for a period of time.

Lastly - the punishment and explusion of the Jews did not happen over night.  It took hundreds of years to manifest.  G*d sent many prophets to the Jewish people to beg them to follow his Torah - and they unfortuantely did not listen.  What do you do with an errant child?  If you dont love your child - you dont punish them. IF you love your child - you punish them to correct them.  In addition - the bodily reality is not the final reality - so their suffering and pain - while it may have lasted their mortal existence - does not necessarily continue once they pass away provided they did their best in their lifetime to observe the Torah.

Whether you remember it or not - we all choose to come here.  We all choose to take the risk.  We all know what we are walking into and we agree to it before we come here.  

it doesn't matter how inteligent you are. You belive what you're told by your parents as a child. That's why children only stop beliving in santa when a) their parents tell them he's not real or b) if they catch them bring the presents down the stairs. if you're told by your parents that god exists then as far as you're concerned he exists because mummy and daddy said so.

it is very impressive but i don't see how it's supposed to shift my mind on god's existence. 

you have no proof that god told them how the moon was made.

all you need is a lot of time to work it out. the super computer just quickens the process. 

yes the whole ten seconds it takes to colour code and the whole 5 minutes to respond.

why does he have to follow his own rules. he's god and can do whatever he want's. Also when i punnish my children i don't torture and murder them. he's god couldn't he just directly speak to them to keep them in check he doesn't have to worry about free will stuff they already have an unshakeable belief about his existence so god isn't changing anything.

I must be the exception to the above, because I looked Santa up in the encyclopedia.

So it sounds like we agree.  God's existence cannot be proven scientifically.

Even so, he can be believed in rationally.

Well, science deals with cause and effect in the context of observations available to human beings. If there is a spiritual world out there humans can interact with and recognize that interaction, then it is observable, however strange or illogical it is.

Science doesn't have to be either deterministic or fully-explanatory. The most common interpretation of quantum mechanics is probabilistic, with constantly branching worlds where only one branch is randomly chosen to be our reality - hence, determinism is violated. Science doesn't have any problem with it, since we've learned to calculate those probabilities, and that is more than enough to make an enormous range of predictions. Science also doesn't know the cause before some things: we don't know what causes gravity (well, gravitons is a popular explanation, but, again, where gravitons come from, no one knows), we don't know why the electron mass is what it is - perhaps the "why" of it is beyond the scope of human consciousness, but regardless, again, science recognizes them as facts of our Universe and can live without knowing their origins (it even allows the possibility of there not being any origins at all!).

"Ghosts", "souls", "afterlife" - all these things, if exist, allow a pretty clear description both by common language, and by science. Science has been unable to detect them as entities so far. If they exist, but somehow elude science - then there must be much more to them than anyone is aware of, and the current popular explanations are hopelessly off.

See, this is the problem we necessarily stumble upon: science is directly tied to human perception and consciousness. If something isn't known to science, then almost certainly it isn't known to any human - most likely not even not known, but even not perceivable. But people do not describe, for example, ghosts as something beyond this world, they see ghosts as having some visual manifestation - and science has never detected this manifestation, despite countless experiments, so I just have to assume that this claim is a bogus. If there is an entity called a "ghost", then no description of this entity by a human being will make any sense, because it is too far away from our level of consciousness, and English, for example, is an insufficient tool for describing any of its elements.

Are there things science isn't aware of? Of course, I don't think science knows even 0.000000000000001% of what there is to know about the Universe. However, in almost all cases it is probably the science not having advanced far enough yet. Things that are beyond science - they might be beyond anything, especially human consciousness.