Tom

Tom, said - 'consciousness needs a life form, doesn't it'?

Says, who!? .. In a multi-dimensional universe.. Who's to say, that what we associate, with our own paradigm - Applies to other dimensions, of Reality! -- And, on that basis - How can the 'Everything-is-natural' subscribers'.. be 'Sure' of any of their 'world-views'!?

 Wouldn't that be, another version, of Faith?! ..Of which, if you Don't 'fall-in-line' with the 'what-you-see-is-All-you-get' {naturalists}.. That phenomena, of having 'Faith' is roundly criticized!? ..{aint there a double-standard, here?!}  o:

No

Ha ha

Well I can accept actually that theoretically there may be a way for consciousness to exist without a life form.

Naturally too. I can't imagine it but that doesn't mean that it's not possible .

What I would say however is I feel that taking the position that nature is all that exists isn't the presence of a faith. It's the absence of any faith whatsoever.

I guess a person might describe that as nihilism but for me it just means accepting that the very basics of life are real and nothing more.

So I accept that nature exists. Causality too. That's it.

Though quantum stuff is odd. Hawking talked about a particle travelling every possible avenue and said something about the observer interacts with that in a way.

I didn't really understand what he meant by that and I don't think it disproves causality but I accept that in the quantum world causality might not be simple like in the Newtonian world.

I'll have to buy the theory of everything again. I lost the copy I had read .

Anyway hawking has said God does play dice. Though he doesn't believe in God as such .

You know what. I'm going to take another look at the science .

Maybe causality doesn't exist !

Hawking said that determinism as such isn't possible. I can accept that's true.

But he's also said in the macroscopic world, the biological and chemical world such as a human being exhibits there exists only cause and affect .

You know what I want to move on.

Here's how I'm going to do it.

From this point on I'm going to accept as fact these things.

One free will does not exist.

Two God does not exist.

For the rest of my time on this thread I'll accept these two things and won't try to convince anyone of the truth of them.

There's no point in me discussing either of those because my mind is closed.

I don't accept that means I hold a belief but anyone that would like to believe that is welcome to.

What I am interested in is exploring further and also discuss what that actually means accepting it as true what I've stated.

Guys imagine for a minute that there is no free will and no god either.

How would you see your life and life in general then?

So what else may or may not exist ?

Well, starting with free will and God being a false belief that leaves us with I and my world .

Without free will can I exist?

I know the world doesn't exist as it appears .

For example most people are aware that a static solid objects contains empty space as well as moving particles.

existence exists, but not much exists for atheists.

Is there anything else? I guess not . So there are four things.

First God. Second free will . Third I . Fourth the material universe.

I wonder if anyone believes in God but no free will .

Actually I've heard that view thinking about it.

I couldn't get that. To me if there is no free will how can hell make sense .

God is invariably accompanied by hell. Not sure why but always the case .

I don't really get the God doesn't exist but free will does position.

Where could the free will arise if not divinely bestowed? For me anyway it couldn't. Matter and chemicals don't equal free will . They just don't .

Interesting. Wow your avatar is attractive ! Sorry sexist I know. My daughter says I objectify women. My bad I apologise .

Tom, said - I would say however is I feel that taking the position that nature is all that exists isn't the presence of a faith. It's the absence of any faith whatsoever.

 

The above, to my mind is irrational. There are Many types of 'faith'..{or believing in something.. quite often ardently.. that is presented, as a definitive {or nearly so}, factual conclusion - Based primarily, on what you're personally aware of.

Keep in mind, that while our '5 senses' are 'up-to-the-job' in Most of our daily activivities - Those same '5 senses' do Not explain, 'ESP'..{extra-sensory}.. Or even the somewhat common phenomena, of being aware of, when one is being 'stared' at - Quite often, from directly behind them!

.. There was a book written about that, {"The Sense of Being Stared At"}.. That proposed, that-that phenomena, {among a few others}.. Is a result, of our consciousness, extending Beyond the confines, of our 'brain' and-or body! -- Or even, thinking about a 'loved one' in a moment, when said person, is in some sort of peril.. {danger} !

 Ergo - If Not now.. or next year - I suspect, that there Will come a time, 'Tom'.. when people, holding fast, to views of 'naturalness'.. similar to your own.. Will be 'forced' by the accumulating, counter-evidence - To needfully, change/ adjust, your presently perceived {belief-based}, paradigm!

'Belief-based' -- A-ha! .. A 'believer' of a different 'stripe'.. for Now, at least!  0:

So what could the I be if we accept there is no free will?

The watcher I guess. I feel that way if I'm honest. That I watch thought feeling and behaviour.

This consciousness is generic . Sure of you lose an eye your vision changes but the basic awareness is always there . We all have this generic awareness .

Other animals too I'm sure . Insects and birds . Maybe plants and fruits and vegetables. I want to know!

Surely a bird and an insect is aware. But a plant? Maybe. I want know !

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The root of ur OCD tom is that the present is to scary for you to live in. Exhibited by living in your own threads, answering past posts and your lack of belief in free will and God. If they existed you'd have to deal with the present, be accountable, accept responsibility. None of which you are capable of.

Saying your mind is closed, there is to be no discussion on your beliefs is the height of ignorance.

You are not moving on, but regressing into a place of no return. I do not accept, nor does ANYONE else your convoluted beliefs. Should be a clue you're on the wrong path.

I don't need your permission to know things to be true, that your beliefs are the folly. Whatever for are you giving permission for us to disagree? It's because of insecurities, self doubts and knowing deep inside what your expressing is all BS.

SA.

There is this idea that there is evidence of the supernatural .

My friend think of the outstanding technological and scientific evidence of recent times . Where is the one solid piece of evidence that's been gathered that demonstrates that there is a single supernatural event that has been objectively confirmed?

My friend there is not one .

FB calm down! Me too!

Stolen writes:

Says, who!? .. In a multi-dimensional universe.. Who's to say, that what we associate, with our own paradigm - Applies to other dimensions, of Reality! -- And, on that basis - How can the 'Everything-is-natural' subscribers'.. be 'Sure' of any of their 'world-views'!?

Displaying total ignorance. Multi-dimensional universe and multiverses are two entirely different concepts.

Dimensions of reality??? You just made that phrase up.

Dimensions exist within the universe. If you want to believe that other universes exist, they are not in other dimensions by definution.

As for the position it's illogical to say that to have no belief in the supernatural is a belief I don't accept that .

It's interesting though. Trysts talked about the burden of proof being on free will not existing because it's generally our experience that it does. I'm sympathetic to that viewpoint.

However it's certainly the case that we observe causality.

Like Newton with the apple . And free will certainly doesn't fit with that model.

To be honest SA I find your belief in God less arrogant then the belief in free will .

How dare we assume we can control the universe, we insignificant specks of dust?

But then we believed that the entire universe revolved around us once so we've form for that .

Why did we believe that? Because it seemed to be true. We are still , or at least we seem to be. The earth is generally flat or at least it seems to be , and we have free will or at least we seem to have.

Anyway like I say buddy what interests me is what happens next.

Like that contributor showed me three days ago what is worth exploring is what happens when we relinquish the ego and accept we haven't free will . What does that mean to the I. That's what I'm interested in exploring .

Md ever heard of that saying you get what you give.

You started your post talking about me having OCD and I switched off. If you're dismissive of me why should I listen to you?

But then perhaps you aren't interested in me but rather would entertain the gallery. That's fine if so. Either way you're welcome here along with everyone else . I believe in us all and I love company.

Gallery. I think I'm the only one that reads my words and half the time I'm bemused .