what are we 2.0

So I've come to accept the world was created naturally . A force like gravity created it . I accept that everything has a natural explanation . Hawking talked about this being the first time this universe began though other universes will exist . He said that time in the sense we know now began after the Big Bang .

I can accept all these things

Now us . So we are a natural thing too . Hawking and Einstein talk about the absence of free will .

You have brought some further understanding to me today . You've shown me that what we are is a mixture of our brain our body and our environment.

I like that, non duality and order . A natural explanation. It makes sense too that love has a natural explanation and to encourage natural bonds makes sense .

I guess it's the still finer details I'd like to know . I think though it's inevitable there is this awareness at first , then we naturally know things and the things we know naturally create feelings and this naturally leads to behaviour v

So for example we are born , brain and body . We have of course a world around us . We naturally observe . Say for example a child struggling to deal with the wind and a set of belongings . We understand the child is suffering . This brings feelings and the feelings lead to behaviour . All natural .

I guess feelings of love come as you say from nature and that leads to the loving behaviour , the caring .

I don't know . It doesn't ring true somehow though .

It feels like just as we know one and one makes two we know too it's not right to leave a child to suffer . We just know it .

That's the bit that confuses me maybe .

Anyway I definitely do think I can accept the overview that what we are is a brain and body and universe created naturally and functioning naturally and I see that as both liberating and relaxing .

All this identity stuff is a big old mess and it's really nice and clear to use those terms

Certainly then I can sum up my findings at this point .

The universe is natural and was created naturally . We are too .

We are a mixture of our body our brain and our environment.

That's where I'm up too , what I'm sure about right now . Thank you Fh . Nice catching you too .

Back to work for me .

Please keep sharing your thoughts . You're articulating yourself beautifully and it's lovely to have some company and interaction while I wonder

Heres a free will scenario. You are walking along the street, you do not need to think about it, it happens instinctively, no free will involved. Suddenly, theres a child in your path who appears to be alone. You look around and see no adult. This is unpredictable, now your conscious brain has options..do you ignore it, look for the mother, knock on doors and adk whose child it is etc. if you are shy, you might think you chose to look around without knocking on doors, but if you know it would be better to knock on doors you might go against your personality and do that. Free will!

Getting hostile.

No Fh isn't hostile buddy

That's interesting Fh and I'd like to address that .

I'd like to look at it in stages

So first let's look at what it is that's to know . Do we have free will ?

I guess within that there are further questions . For example we have thoughts feelings and behaviour.

Have we free will in respect of all of these or perhaps our behaviour only .

Even taking the position we have free will we could still say there is an argument about how much of what we say is us really is us.

So for example you're brought up within a Muslim family and are educated in a faith school.

You're naturally a Muslim but then you'd say no it's my free will to follow Allah .

Another person that had had similar experiences within a Christian family and society says it's my free will to follow Jesus .

An objective person might say hey there is clearly a correlation between a person's experiences and how they behave .

So perhaps it's fair to say what we believe influences our behaviour and our beliefs are formed from our experiences

Now it's clearly the case that both the Muslim and the Christian can't be right so it's obviously true that some beliefs are false . So if we are acting a certain way because we hold a false belief it's fair to say our behaviour isn't entirely free

I guess some people would say yes okay but we choose our beliefs . Is that true ? I'm not so sure it is .

Anyway it shows that when we talk of free will there's more to it then assessing behaviour . Does free will exist in terms of behaviour feeling thought and belief .

I guess we could even wonder about awareness itself . Can we choose what we are aware of ?

So free will is certainly something to consider in the establishing what it is that we are . Do we have free will and if so how do we have it

There's other things too . Like right and wrong.

Does right and wrong objectively exist or are they only a subjective concept

Also can we do what's good without this natural feeling of love or is it more to do with order ?

I wonder how it all fits together.

We talked about it being brain body and environment earlier . Could that mean free will exists ?

So the brain is capable of existing outside of the rest of the world ?

I mean deciding what to do . If so what does this brain want ? Has it an agenda ? Perhaps when we look at things more objectively as just being brain body and environment we can make more sense of things

Okay my feelings on your example .

I'm not sure this thing exists . I kind of get where you are coming from . That we have certain natural personality traits that we ordinarily follow but I'm just not sure that's true .

I think that it's highly likely without exception that we behave in a way that is a mixture of the chemical and biological things that are happening with us in relation to our material world around us and this I'm a king sitting on a throne model we currently perceive to be true is absolutely false . The I that we believe in is a false belief

I heard about a tragic story of a little child that drown in a garden pond. The child had wandered from nursery and a man seeing the child was lost thought maybe I should intervene but then thought twice because of a concern about how he would be viewed by others .

You'd say this was free will at work ? For me it was more a case that fear naturally inhibited his ability to care .

I don't know Fh I'm not convinced by your example .

I believe free will doesn't exist. My experience tells me it doesn't. My logic tells me it doesn't . The scientists I respect tell me it doesn't .

I don't know though and I'm interested .

I don't know if it can be definitively proven one way or another but perhaps we can at least hope to get a clearer idea through discussion. Of our own views if nothing else

I think it does exist..my definition of it is "the ability to act contrary to your natural psychological make up", which i think we can do if we try.