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What place will Carlsen finish in the Norway Chess Classic?

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fabelhaft

I have never read anywhere that Ivanchuk is supposed to have accused Topalov of cheating.

mromanian

Ssame here.

Biotk
SmyslovFan wrote:

Let's be clear: I said that Ivanchuk's comments were made in an interview. I didn't say he played in San Luis. Ivanchuk's comments were published in chessbase (I think in 2007), but I haven't looked up the link recently. 

My google search brought up one mention of Ivanchuk claiming that Topalov was cheating.  That mention was by YOU 15 months ago in a post where you also stated that Topalov was a cheater.

Nothing that in any way resembles even crappy evidence provided either time, nor does the claim of cheating at San Luis make any sense.  Your claims seem to be extremely unreliable.  

SmyslovFan

The "crappy evidence" was Leko's accusation, corroborated by witnesses, that Danailov was acting very strangely with his cell phone and appeared to be signalling to Topalov. I can't find the interview with Ivanchuk at the moment, but I did read Ivanchuk's comments about 15 months ago. 

Here's an extended quote from chessbase. Notice that in this article, it's Nigel Short making most of the accusations. Ivanchuk's comment was much shorter. I'll see if I can find it later. 

"Here by popular demand is your item on the latest round of insults, insinuations, and idiocy that followed in the wake of the German newspaper article on Topalov's manager's suspicious behavior during Corus. (Since acting suspicious is subjective and isn't a crime there is no need to call it "alleged suspicious behavior.") ChessBase first put up excerpts of some of the fall-out and follow-ups in mainstream papers, including some chess columns. One was a DNA Sport item that interviewed Nigel Short, who was a commentator at the San Luis, Argentina, FIDE world championship tournament. (Most of my San Luis coverage with lots of links is on the Oct 05 archive page.)

That, of course, is where Topalov blitzed to a dominating victory. At the time and immediately after the event there were a few grumbles from Topalov's competitors about his seating position, the strange habits of his team during the games, and the ease with which he could have been signaled (little security on site, lots of coming and going). The comments by players were made almost apologetically and were mostly discarded as sour grapes and confusion at how Topalov could crush them so easily. There were stronger statements made off the record and in 2006 a few Russian columnists rattled sabers and stirred the rumor mill about high-tech cheating. Behind the scenes a few people who had attended various top events in 2005 and 2006 compared notes on the odd activity they had or hadn't seen Topalov and his associates engage in at several events. Videos, pictures, stories, most of them corresponding with what the Süddeutsche Zeitung story reported.

Short's money quote: "It is my understanding that the majority of players in San Luis privately believe that Topalov received signalling from Danailov during play. The essence of these allegations, which I heard personally from disgruntled players in Argentina at the time, was not that Topalov constantly received computer advice but only at critical junctures. Indeed, if one were to cheat, a player of Topalov’s strength would only need two or three computer moves per game to put him at an overwhelming advantage vis-à-vis his opponents."

There is now a follow-up at ChessBase with some clarifications on a mild misattribution and more from Short, as well some reader letters. I'm a little mystified at all the "ChessBase bias against Topalov" guff people are coughing up because they chose to reprint the Süddeutsche Zeitung article. I know fans will be fans, and jihadis don't care why something negative about their hero is being said. But it would have been bizarre to ignore something like that appearing in a major paper. Another factor is that it wasn't much of a shock for the CB guys, who, like me and most other people on the circuit, had been talking about and in some cases seeing similar behavior for quite a while. In sum, while there is no proof of Topalov receiving signals, not reprinting that story would have been inconceivable, if not irresponsible. Imagine the Miami Herald reporting allegations that Peyton Manning is taking steroids and American football websites ignoring it because they had no proof. Hell, it has never been proven that Barry Bonds ever took steroids but it's been the biggest story in baseball for years. News about news is news. The fan bias test is simple: imagine the exact same story coming out but replace the name "Veselin Topalov" with "Vladimir Kramnik" or "Garry Kasparov" and be very honest with yourself about what your reaction would be.

To go into the obvious, there is little similarity between this and what happened in Elista during the Kramnik-Topalov match. There one of the players and his manager filed a protest about Kramnik's bathroom visits (which was reasonable, although they shouldn't have had access to the video) and followed it up with public declarations of suspicions (not reasonable). Topailov continued by publishing spurious statistics alleging Kramnik was receiving computer assistance during the match (unforgivable). Again, this was one of the participants saying these things about his opponent while a world championship match was still going on. Topailov continued by ripping open bathroom ceilings, mocking-up photos and sending them out far and wide pretending they were evidence Kramnik was cheating. They even sent such things from false email accounts, pretending to be Russians who attended the match. And when we all wanted to believe this was just sour grapes and a way of coping with the loss, especially back home in Bulgaria, Topalov gave the ABC interview in which he flatly stated he believed Kramnik cheated.

Yes, there was a protest in San Luis about Topalov; Leko complained that Topalov was the only player who always sat in the same place. The most relevant difference is that there was never, ever, even a hint of the possibility that Kramnik cheated in Elista. His frequent bathroom trips were unusual, but unless you believe he was receiving clues through the plumbing (or electrical wires inside the ceiling), it's only weird. Consistent behavior that looks a lot like signaling is another matter. Proof? No. Enough to start an investigation and to hassle Topalov? No. Does he get the benefit of the doubt with me? Yes. Worth taking precautions in the future? Absolutely.

This isn't mass hysteria or a global conspiracy of jealousy to tear down Topalov. Nor do I think it's payback for Topailov dragging chess into the toilet in Elista. I don't doubt those two things are potential factors, but so far it hasn't been visible. In reality, very little has been said. There are legit concerns not always expressed in the most responsible way. The best thing we can do now is take measures to remove all doubt by preventing the possibility of signaling and electronic communications at top events. My gut feeling is that one, Topalov is a great player who has raised the level of his game and should maintain a top-three position for the next five years. Two, Danailov has a documented history of reprehensible behavior and that makes it easy to assume he would stop at nothing.

Leadership is needed and FIDE has been as quiet as you might expect from a group for whom "ethics" is a four-letter word. Bessel Kok will have some influence soon, but that won't affect traditional events. The Grand Slam of Corus, Linares, Sofia, and Bilbao that is coalescing might also realize how essential anti-cheating measure are, but Danailov himself is one of the prime movers in it. I suppose this is a chance for him to turn his own anti-cheating rhetoric into action.
"

MSC157
fabelhaft wrote:

Carlsen in fifth before the last round, where he plays Hammer, so a top half finish looks quite possible in spite of what happened in the first round.

When did Kasparov finish in worse position than the first half the last time? :)

Biotk
SmyslovFan wrote:

The "crappy evidence" was Leko's accusation, corroborated by witnesses, that Danailov was acting very strangely with his cell phone and appeared to be signalling to Topalov.

That is crappy evidence.  In fact that is giving it more credit then it deserves.  It is nothing more than a lame attempt at justification for poor play by a player who had a subpar tournament (throwing away his chances within the first three rounds after losing to Topalov despite a winning position in round 1, drawing with Moro after giving away a significant advantage in round 2, and losing to Svidler in round 3 where he played terrible) and instead of admitting his own failures, thinks that the one person who actually showed up not afraid to lose games and take risks, instead of just going for draws, must have been cheating.  It is pathetic. 

fabelhaft

"The "crappy evidence" was Leko's accusation, corroborated by witnesses, that Danailov was acting very strangely with his cell phone and appeared to be signalling to Topalov. I can't find the interview with Ivanchuk at the moment"

Leko did not accuse Danailov of acting strangely with his cell phone or appearing to be signalling to Topalov, just like Ivanchuk never accused Topalov of cheating.

Robert_New_Alekhine

His game should have finished by now. I'll go take a look.

Robert_New_Alekhine

3.5/9..He did the thing we least expected...he LOST to hammer.

SmyslovFan

Wow, Carlsen finished 7th, just as I predicted earlier. But I had no clue he'd lose to Hammer. 

The_Ghostess_Lola
Robert0905 wrote:

Carlsen won!

Topalov lost.

Carlsen plays hammer, good chance of 4.5--even score.

....and a better chance at 3.5/9....putrid.

mromanian

Same here except I predicted 8th.

trotters64

"Carlsen not only lost today but he lost like a beginner"..not my words but those of Maurice Ashley . You would think a world champion would have the spirit to put up a fight but to simply allow Hammer to place both his rooks on the seventh against a wide open king has to go down as one of the worst displays ever by a world champion. 

This tournamnent will take some recovering from for Carlsen and I would not be surprised if he is no longer world number 1 by  the years end.

fabelhaft

"I would not be surprised if he is no longer world number 1 by the years end"

For that to happen he would have to score massive minuses also in both Sinquefield Cup and London, which doesn't seem particularly likely.

trotters64
fabelhaft wrote:

"I would not be surprised if he is no longer world number 1 by the years end"

 

For that to happen he would have to score massive minuses also in both Sinquefield Cup and London, which doesn't seem particularly likely.

Well there are 3 players now within 40 points of Carlsen's rating. If Carlsen were to lose say twice to Anand that would halve the deficit to 20 points ... the same goes for Naka and Topalov. In my opinion it is entirely feasible that Magnus could lose more games to his pursuers . If he recovers his form it will be less likely..as usual time will tell.

mromanian

I think he was trying to hard that's one thing about magnus. It is good to try hard but not too hard.

The_Ghostess_Lola

That performance was so bad-bad that you wonder if he'll recover anytime soon. Some wires melted down....they had to have. Yucky....

MSC157

Clearly frustrated after the last loss:

http://www.nrk.no/sport/irritert-carlsen-dyttet-bort-nrks-mikrofon-1.12428487

trotters64
MSC157 wrote:

Yes you dont need to speak norwegian to see that magnus was really upset ...get out of my face he was saying as he pushed the sound man's boom away.

fabelhaft

"For once I agree with trotters"

For Carlsen to fall from #1 before the year is over it will take two more quite extreme results in both Sinquefield Cup and London. It might not even be enough if he repeats the Norway score in both tournaments, and I think he will both play better next time and know the time control better.