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How beat g6 - modern def.?


  • 4 years ago · Quote · #1

    blackjokercz

    Hi, I played few games against this defence and i found very difficult to beat it, so I think about learn it for black, but before I would like to know your opinion about this defence. I think that the idea about alow white in center and attack from side with c6.6, is nice and very unsound(unusual) so it might be great in blitz games. But is it realy working/good or it is easy to beat when you know how? What is the basic idea against and what is the best way against this opening? Do you know some inspirating games with modern def? Whats yours exp? Thanks for replies

     

    edit. sorry for the "unsound" i mean unusual

  • 4 years ago · Quote · #2

    Wouter_Remmerswaal

    I'm guessing that it is like a reverse grob?
    I can hardly imagine this being a strong opening for black, as it is hard to play with white even though you have tempo.

    I think that if it works a bit like the grob I would just keep the center closed. Play d4 as second move. Don't accept the pawn offer on g6 and then use the weakness of the g6 after your pieces are nicely developed.

  • 4 years ago · Quote · #3

    xiko92

    Basically when a opponent plays 1.e4 g6 for example, wants that you gain the center and the initiative, and wait for your mistakes. I have some experience and I really believe that my best area are the openings. My strategy against that players includes basically first gain the center, and then play solidly, without much risk, devoluping as faster as possible, and frequently trying to switch out only your dark squared bishop, if it lands in the long diagonal a1-h8. That should be the only piece that you want to be switched in order to maintain your spacial advantage from the opening.

    I hope it helps

  • 4 years ago · Quote · #4

    Dragec

    Easy to learn setup is pretty simmilar to Yugoslav attack vs Sicilian. e4,d4,Nc3, (f3),Be3,Qd2,0-0-0,h4, etc. f3 depends if black plays Nf6 or not. You would also need to find a spot for your king's knight. Obviously,you can't always use the same approach because your opponent gets to play his moves as well.
  • 4 years ago · Quote · #5

    blackjokercz

    I think that the classical move order is 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6

     

    and white have centre and space but what is the plan for following moves? I've saw 4.f4 or 4.Bc4 or 4.Be2, what is the best? My biggest problem with this opening with white is that I feel extremely good, because my opponent doesn't follow the basic rules, it give up centre and the develop is weird too, but always it trap me when I tried attack black position. Thanks for replies and helping me.

  • 4 years ago · Quote · #6

    Hypocrism

    I will always play to reach a king's indian: playing Nf3 before Nc3 and playing c4 before Nc3.

  • 4 years ago · Quote · #7

    BigDaddy11

    From experience I have found Dragec's approach to be the easiest way to play against the modern. I like the opening as black because it gets your opponent out of their comfort zone but by the same token so are you.

    The modern is much like a coiled up snake just waiting to strike with a key pawn push of his choosing that allows him to catch the white player off guard and hopefully gain an advantage.

    Deciding to use the modern is really a matter of style. Its hypermodern approach is sound but difficult to master. It is easy to lose to a weaker player because of a simple oversight. That said you can also beat a much stronger player because they are in uncharted waters. The one good thing is it usually turns out to be an interesting game.

  • 4 years ago · Quote · #8

    Conzipe

    A very common problem players has against the modern is that they tend to play way to aggressively and tries to open the center or go for a kind of kingside attack (yugoslav ideas, etc.) way to quickly.

    Often the key when you have more space is simply to try and maintain it (prevent possible breaks in the center from your opponent) and improve your pieces as much as possible and then try to come up with something active. It's often very hard for black to do anything active as long as you are controlling so much space.

    I think this is a very important thing to understand when playing against any kind of modern opening, to not go crazy and try to refute black's opening, rather just playing patiently and let black suffer a bit because of hes lack in space and slowly improve your position and make sure your center is very well supported before coming up with something active (make sure those usually lazy rooks are doing something!).


    However modern defence is of course a very well developed opening and it's far from easy for white to actually maintain hes center in a good way which is why it's quite important to study different lines.

    Maybe you know all of this already, just making sure you know some of the basics before talking about theory. ^^



    Of course because black's first moves are very slow g6, Bg7, d6 it will give white a huge range of different possibilities so against the modern you will actually have the luxury off choosing between a lot of different systems, let me give you a little introduction to some of them.

    Austrian attack (e4, d4, Nc3, f4):
    This setup is considered the most challenging against the pirc/modern and white often aims to get in quite a quick e5 or f5 however this is also of course very risky from white's perspective since hes more vulnerable a quick opening of the position. With hes pawns advanced so far it typically creates some weaknesses in white's camp which can become a problem if the position opens up to quickly. Of course like most aggressive openings and variations it leads to a lot of theory and I recommend checking this out if you are a very ambitious player that likes to play the best possible moves and don't mind studying a lot of theory.

    150 attack (Be3/Bg5, Qd2, Bh6, 0-0-0 attack on the h-file):
    This is a very simple idea which can be very tricky to execute since an experienced pirc/modern player will often keep things very flexible (like delaying castling and keeping the knight on g8 or bishop on f8 to prevent any Bh6 ideas from white's part) and if you attack or castle in the wrong moment it might turn out to be very expensive. I think the key if you want to play this variation effectively is to keep a cool head and focus on finding useful waiting moves and just wait until the right moment to attack. Also learning key ideas tends to be more effective rather than learning specific variations in this system and against less experienced players this plan tends to work very well.

    The classical systems (developing knights on f3 and c3):

    This is a very simple approach which pretty much tries to follow the concept I explained in the beginning of this post. White aims to just develop hes pieces and prevent black from getting any kind of activity and slowly improve hes position while black is paralyzed. Theoretically speaking the classical formations have a pretty "bad" refutation (black equalizes "easily") but I think they are heavily underestimated and white can definitely fight for an advantage with them. I recommend looking into this if you like playing more calm and positional chess where you slowly try to squeeze the life out of your opponents position rather than bashing him immediately.

    The fianchetto system (e4, d4, Nc3, g3, Bg2, Nge2, 0-0):

    This is an interesting system which could be described as quite similar to the closed sicilian or the botvinnik system in the english opening since white's general strategy will usually be to slowly build up an attack on the kinside, since white can quite easily start pushing hes pawns over there and black will either seek counter-play on the queenside or in the center. Theoretically speaking this variation is not considered all that impressive either but the positions arising from it has a good appeal to a certain type of people and being comfortable with a position is often more important than playing the objectively best moves and gain a slightly better position that your not comfortable with.


    There are of course a lot more system than those I just mentioned but I highly recommend all of them since they have all proven to be sound and they are also very economical since they can both be played against the pirc and modern defences.

  • 4 years ago · Quote · #9

    SchofieldKid

    It seems to me like  the modern defense often transposes into the Kings Indian Defense (KID) So i usually treat it like i do with the KID 1.d4 g6 2.c4 bg7 3.nc3 ---

    4.e4
  • 4 years ago · Quote · #10

    Dragec

    Conzipe wrote:
    ...

    150 attack (Be3/Bg5, Qd2, Bh6, 0-0-0 attack on the h-file):
    This is a very simple idea which can be very tricky to execute since an experienced pirc/modern player will often keep things very flexible (like delaying castling and keeping the knight on g8 or bishop on f8 to prevent any Bh6 ideas from white's part) and if you attack or castle in the wrong moment it might turn out to be very expensive. I think the key if you want to play this variation effectively is to keep a cool head and focus on finding useful waiting moves and just wait until the right moment to attack. Also learning key ideas tends to be more effective rather than learning specific variations in this system and against less experienced players this plan tends to work very well.

    Exactly what I wanted to say. My brother is experienced Pirc player and when he feels that the opponent will go for this setup, he often doesn't develop the bishop at all. He also leave the king in the center.

    Playing b5, c6 etc. quickly turns the white into defending side, and white kingside attack doesn't have a target.

    So obviously you can not blindly follow all the ideas. Cool

  • 4 years ago · Quote · #11

    BlueKnightShade

    blackjokercz wrote:

    ...

    ... My biggest problem with this opening with white is that I feel extremely good, because my opponent doesn't follow the basic rules, it give up centre and the develop is weird too, but always it trap me when I tried attack black position. Thanks for replies and helping me.


    Just a little note: Black does develop a bishop that points directly towards the centre from g7, so Bg7 is a sound move I would say. You do not need to place a piece directly in the centre in order to have some control in the centre. Anyway there have been some good replies on what to do as white. Hope you get some great inspiration.

  • 4 years ago · Quote · #12

    Estragon

    The Modern Defense is based on using piece play and counter-thrusts with pawns to control the center, as opposed to the classical approach to occupy it with pawns directly.  It is certainly sound, but not promising enough to have developed much of a following at top levels. 

    Conzipe makes an excellent point - the temptation for White is to overplay his hand because his position "looks so good" early in the opening.  White has aggressive opportunities galore in this opening, but over-aggressive play can be severely chastised.  Remember that having a strong pawn center entails the obligation to maintain it.

  • 4 years ago · Quote · #13

    AtahanT

    Back when I was playing 1.e4 I was never impressed at all with pirc or modern. Attacks like 150-attack simply crush black if he takes a wrong turn and it is easy to do so. I've played the modern myself and there are just too many ways to get crushed really imo. It's cramped and you simply let white have an initiative early on.

    I'd stick to the 150 attack and castle queenside, if he doesn't castle it's fine too, you got central pawns that can break in the center too and your queen and rook are lined up on the d file. What's black got if he stays in the center with the king? Not much.

  • 4 years ago · Quote · #14

    gwnn

    at least for the name of it:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Defense,_Monkey's_Bum

    from the article above:

  • 4 years ago · Quote · #15

    AtahanT

    Ofcourse it's good enough for polgar but you and me, we are not GMs. That a position is objectively equal does not mean it is equally easy to play both sides of the board. One side may only hold the equality by making the one single correct move in the position out of several moves while the other side may have a choice between more then one move to hold equality. This means that eventhough the position is equal in the eyes of a computer engine or a very strong GM it is not so for us. Playing difficult positions leads to many more errors. This is why beginners are taught to play e4 e5 and not e4 g6 or d4 d5 and not d4 f5. Natural and equal play.

    The side with the center will always have more options and mostly means that cramped positions will lead to less options. Ofcourse it's playable but why bother? I know alot of people might choose something like 1. ...g6 because you can play it against every white opening but if you need to know theory anyway to not get horribly crushed by 150s and f4 pawn attacks or whites large center then you probably be better off just going mainstream and simply learn e4 e5 and d4 d5 instead. Get your pieces out and grab some of that center immediately.

    Hyper modern openings are not easy to grasp. I personally still find them difficult to grasp. People playing modern should try out classical defenses, they might shockingly improve their results I think.

  • 4 years ago · Quote · #16

    Helipacter

    I've flirted with the Pirc myself with black, and I find that one wrong move and you're dead. It's good to catch people off-guard with (or out of their pet Ruy line), but if you've come up against someone who vaguely knows what they're doing, then you're pretty much buried.

  • 4 years ago · Quote · #17

    gwnn

    Atahan, I think you misread my post. I just showed how Judit Polgar attacked against the Modern (she was White, not Black). I did not mean to say that the opening poster should play e4-g6. Anyway I think Judit Polgar plays mostly (only?) c5 and e5 vs e4.

  • 4 years ago · Quote · #18

    hippochess

    There is another sharp plan for White (very similar to the so called 150-attack) based on e4, d4, Nc3, Be3, Qd2, f3, 0-0-0 and a quick kingside attack. This plan could by played a bit more positionally and even with a short castling. This was the case in the game below. However you should play a bit better than White in the game below. In this game White tried to completely “tie up” Black within the last three ranks (e.g. Black’s Hippo set-up was almost forced by White)  and the result was that White was outplayed in just ….. 13 moves (e.g. after 11…c5! Black equalized and after 13…Ng4! Black is already slightly better).    

     

     
  • 4 years ago · Quote · #19

    blackjokercz

    Thank you all, now I feel much better against this opening. I really helped me and I finaly managed few wins in blitz with 150 attack.
  • 4 years ago · Quote · #20

    funkade

    I played this against one FM and almost won, someone should help us with tutorial on it (video).

    Thanks in advance


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