One minor correction. White should play 15.Nc3 +- not 15.c3 +/-
Is the Wilkes-Barre/Traxler Busted? Probably
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Did you force the computer to do this opening? I highly doubt the computer would ever do such a sac..
And very nice game.
It may be busted technically, but I doubt there would be many, if any, White players who would be able to, of the top of their heads, prove that in a game situation. People play the Wilkes-Barres not because it is one of the technically soundest openings, but because it is one of the most difficult to which to respond.
SerbianChessStar wrote:
Did you force the computer to do this opening? I highly doubt the computer would ever do such a sac..
And very nice game.
Thanks for your reply. The sac is incredibly sound if White plays 5.Nxf7. Black playes 5...Bxf2ch with wild positions. Players of the Black pieces represented by the Wilkes Barre chess club would destroy all opposition who played it.
Ken Williams in his book tried to waffle when it came to the 5.Bxf7ch variation because he knew the sacrifice's fate hinged on that variation not the 5.Nxf7 variation. Instead of providing analysis routinely beyond move 20 in the incredibly sharp 5.Nxf7 variation, he declined to do any serious analysis of the 5.Bxf7ch variation.What analysis has been done, though, gives Black a lot of compensation in known lines. For example, in Anand-Beliavsky, the game might have turned out differently (actually, Anand won the theoretical battle but lost due to a tactical shot in time pressure), if Beliavksy had made a critical improvment. Their game went, I think, 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7ch Ke7 6.Bd5 Qe8 7.d3? (Bxc6 is forced) d6 8.Bxc6 bxc6? (Beliavsky was too concerned about getting his Queen to the Kingside to go pawn hunting) Correct is the obvious 8...Qxc6 with excellent compensation for the pawn e.g. 9.O-O Bg4 threats like h6 forcing the Knight back into the pin on g4. Fritz claims that White should meet 9...Bg4 with 10.Qd2, but after things like 10...h6/11...Rf8/12...Qh5, I would rather play Black.
In response to the second post, this game shows how to take one of the most wild positions in all of chess and turn it into a pussy cat. All White has to do is find 8.Nf3!! & the position plays itself. All the player of the White pieces has to do is to manage the craziness in the first few moves beyond 8.Nf3 out to where White has a simple technical win, and the opening collapses. Black cannot allow this to happen.
When I showed this position to Senior Life Master Andrew Karklins, he suggested that Black try 8.Nf3 Bg4 9.d3 Nxe4 10.Qe2 Bxf3 11.gxf3 Nxf2 12.Bg5ch Rf6 13.Rf1 Qd4 14.Nd2 Nh3 15.c3 Qd5 16.Bxf6ch Kxf6 & now Karklins gives 17.Qe4 & according to Karlins, Black has compensation for the exchange. I disagree. After 17.Ne4ch/Nxc5, Black is down the exchange with very little compensation.
These variations are easy to calculate in either postal or OTB play.
By the way, those of you who haven't checked my thread on the Berliner Gambit are encouraged to look at the thread to see how I converted another one of the sharpest openings in all of chess into one that was ideal for the positional player.
The whole point of this thread is to encourage positional players to use their defensive talent and just convert the material edge they get out of the opening into a technical win. Strong players routinely win games a pawn up under far more difficult middlegames.
Modern defensive technique has not caught up to the 4.Ng5 variation, that is why, I predict, in the next 5 years, there will be a general consensus that 4.Ng5 in the Two Knights' Defense is +/-.
Here is Anand-Beliavsky with a critical improvement for Black.
I think I have finally found an answer for your 8.Nf3 variation.
Analysis pending.
The best I came up with is
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bd5 Rf8 7.Bxc6 dxc6 8.Nf3 Nxe4 9.Qe2 Nxf2 10.Rf1 Qd6 11.d4 Bxd4 12.Nxd4 Qxd4 13.Rxf2 Bg4 14.Bg5+ Ke6 15.Be3 Qb4+ 16.c3 Qa4 17.b3 Qe4 18.Nd2 Rxf2 19.Qxf2 Qd3 20.Rc1 Rf8 21.Nf3 h6 22.c4 b6 23.c5 b5 24.Rd1 Qf5 25.Qd2 Qe4 26.Qd7+ Kf6 27.Qd3 Bxf3 28.gxf3 Qxf3 29.Kd2 Qd5 30.Rf1+ Ke7 31.Rxf8 Kxf8
It is a very long line which I would have rejected except both sides had a lot of only moves where the advantage would hinge on. Black has more counterplay in this line although it is not clear if the three pawns equal the extra piece. This is certainy better than the line you gave sloughterchess.
We have a difference of opinion. Here is the way White can counter your plan:
In your above line, I have a much better defence.
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bd5 Rf8 7.Bxc6 dxc6 8.Nf3 Nxe4 9.Qe2 Nxf2 10.Rf1 Qd6 11.d3 Ng4! looks strong to me.
The problem with that line is that it costs to many tempos, allowing white to consolidate his advantage.
Dan danthebugman wrote:
First off Black doesn't have to play 7...dxc6, he has the option of playing 7...bxc6 and according to Heisman in his Traxler Counterattack CD, Black is not necessarily worse. Whether this is true or not, I'm not entirely sure.
Secondly, yes the line you give does seem to be difficult for Black to play. The solution is he needs to try something different. To me it seems 8...Nxe4 is sticking to a plan that doesn't turn out all so well for Black. A better plan may be to play 8...Kf7 9.Nxe5 (White probably has an improvement here, but I haven't really looked all that closely at this line) 9...Kg8 with a lot of open lines and better development.
Dan
I wouldn't consider 9.Nxe5 here; the e-pawn isn't going anywhere. White should play standard moves like 9.d3/Be3/Nbd2 +/- The basic problem facing Black is that if 10...Be3 then 11.fxe3 Ng4 12.Qe2 followed by Nbd2/O-O-O +/-
Conquiscador wrote:
In your above line, I have a much better defence.
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bd5 Rf8 7.Bxc6 dxc6 8.Nf3 Nxe4 9.Qe2 Nxf2 10.Rf1 Qd6 11.d3 Ng4! looks strong to me.
I disagree.
I digress once more. Your plan is much too slow for black.
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bd5 Rf8 7.Bxc6 dxc6 8.Nf3 Nxe4 9.Qe2 Nxf2 10.Rf1 Qd6 11.d3 Ng4 12.Nc3 Be6! 13.Bg5+ Nf6 14.Ne4 Qd5 15.Nxc5 Qxc5 16.Nxe5 Rae5 17.0-0-0 Kd8! and black has equalized.
Once again you have come up with a winning plan---for White!
Would you like to explain to me why black is completely lost and will be mated in only a few more moves?
Your evaluation makes absolutely no sense!
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bd5 Rf8 7.Bxc6 dxc6 8.Nf3 Nxe4 9.Qe2 Nxf2 10.Rf1 Qd6 11.d3 Ng4 12.Nc3 Be6 13.Ne4 Qd5 14.Bd2 b5! 15.0-0-0 Bd6 16.Nc3 Qc5 17.h3 Nf6 and black is poised for a fierce queenside attack.
Try again.
A diagram of the above line.
Actually 14...b5 was forced otherwise I would lose a piece.
I will compliment your move as it had poison down the line.
15.0-0-0 Bd6 16.Nc3 Qc5 17.h3 Nf6 18.Be3 Qb4 19.a3 Qa5 20.Bd4!! b4 21.Nxe5 Qa6 22.axb4 and black is in trouble. The key move in the variation was 20.Bd4. I will look at improvements elsewhere.
I have to conclude that 12.Nc3 refutes my Ng4. I have looked hard for an improvement and I found one in the original line you gave.
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxe7+ Ke7 6.Bd5 Rf8 7.Bxc6 dxc6 8.Nf3 Nxe4 9.Qe2 Nxf2 10.Rf1 Qd6 11.d3 Bg4 12.Bg5+ Kd7! looks just about playable for black. Maybe you can find a better plan for white?
13.Rxf2 Bxf2+ 14.Qxf2 Bxf3 15.gxf3 Rf5 16.Be3 Qb4+ 17.c3 Qb5 18.c4 Qa5+ 19.Qd2 Qxd2+ 20.Nxd2 Rh5 21.Bg1 Rd8 22.Ne4 b6 and I think the position is equal as white has adequate compensation for black's extra pawn.
I must say I am really impressed by the strength of 8.Nf3. I think that black must play 8...Nxe4 as he will be overrun with the alternative 8...Kf7. Out of everything you have posted, I must say that this is your best contribution.
This post will provide the background for the game I played and won against Fritz 8 at 120/30. It is a good practical test of my innovation because the computer outrated me by 1000 points. Unless someone can find a saving resource for Black, the opening appears to be a bust.