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Hardest Mate

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21st June 2009, 12:01pm
#1
by Triple_A
Texas United States
Member Since: Apr 2009
Member Points: 1613

What is the Hardest mate to accomplish I think the hardest is the (King+Rook vs King)

21st June 2009, 12:04pm
#2
by EuropeanSon
Dublin Ireland
Member Since: Mar 2009
Member Points: 290

King and two bishops vs King

21st June 2009, 12:08pm
#3
by Triple_A
Texas United States
Member Since: Apr 2009
Member Points: 1613

1. 2 Bishop + King vs. King

2.King + Rook vs. King

21st June 2009, 02:16pm
#4
by Niven42
West Lafayette, Indiana United States
Member Since: Feb 2008
Member Points: 3798

King + Rook vs. King is actually pretty easy.  The classic ending is always against the side of the board.  Other pieces can complicate it, though.

 

21st June 2009, 02:16pm
#5
by NM OmarCayenne
United States
Member Since: Oct 2007
Member Points: 12607

2 knights vs pawn

21st June 2009, 02:22pm
#6
by Niven42
West Lafayette, Indiana United States
Member Since: Feb 2008
Member Points: 3798

Also, from Wikipedia:

"...in May 2006, Bourzutschky and Konoval discovered a KQNKRBN position with an astonishing DTC (Depth to Checkmate) of 517 moves."

This may be the hardest mate (with a known sequence of forced moves) to date.

(KQNKRBN, if you're not familiar with the notation, means King + Queen + Knight vs. King + Rook + Bishop + Knight)

21st June 2009, 02:33pm
#7
by Triple_A
Texas United States
Member Since: Apr 2009
Member Points: 1613

BUT IT can still be hard

21st June 2009, 02:38pm
#8
by Nytik
Southampton United Kingdom
Member Since: May 2008
Member Points: 5828

Ok, with 6 pieces on the board (including kings) the longest, and therefore probably hardest, checkmate comes from this position:

Of course, for this checkmate to be possible, we must ignore the 50-move rule!
21st June 2009, 02:54pm
#9
by Nytik
Southampton United Kingdom
Member Since: May 2008
Member Points: 5828
Niven42 wrote:

Also, from Wikipedia:

"...in May 2006, Bourzutschky and Konoval discovered a KQNKRBN position with an astonishing DTC (Depth to Checkmate) of 517 moves."

This may be the hardest mate (with a known sequence of forced moves) to date.

(KQNKRBN, if you're not familiar with the notation, means King + Queen + Knight vs. King + Rook + Bishop + Knight)


Interestingly, Wikipedia seems to be incorrect on this matter. (Surprise, surprise!) The longest mate discovered is indeed with KQNkrbn, however it is not 517 moves until mate, but 517 moves until a conversion into a simpler endgame! Namely, KQNkbn. It will in fact take even MORE moves to finish the opponent off. The original position is thus:

And, 517 moves later, white finally wins the black rook, and thus converts into this endgame:
So, the final question is, how many moves will it take to get from here to checkmate? Well, a quick glance at a Nalimov Tablebase tells me that the answer is 8 moves.
Therefore, the longest checkmate discovered so far is 525 moves! Perhaps I should edit that Wikipedia article.
21st June 2009, 02:59pm
#10
by Marvin2
Sydney Australia
Member Since: May 2009
Member Points: 246

i agree with you. one rook with a king and a king is reaaly hard.

21st June 2009, 02:59pm
#11
by Triple_A
Texas United States
Member Since: Apr 2009
Member Points: 1613

bishop + knight + king vs. king

 here is a video link on this mate   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjW5Naq7iVw

21st June 2009, 03:07pm
#12
by RainbowRising
London United Kingdom
Member Since: Oct 2008
Member Points: 6518

If you have a theoretical forced mate then, such as the 500+ one, does the 50 move rule count? I mean, you are technically attempting to win by normal means...

21st June 2009, 03:13pm
#13
by Triple_A
Texas United States
Member Since: Apr 2009
Member Points: 1613

i at least bet theres a capture in like every 49 moves or so :P

21st June 2009, 03:16pm
#14
by RainbowRising
London United Kingdom
Member Since: Oct 2008
Member Points: 6518

Also, K vs K+ R is a piece of cake. All you need to do is keep cutting the enemy K off from the file/rank, and make waiting moves to achieve the opposition to push him back. Mating with BB or BN is much harder.

21st June 2009, 04:06pm
#15
by Nytik
Southampton United Kingdom
Member Since: May 2008
Member Points: 5828
RainbowRising wrote:

If you have a theoretical forced mate then, such as the 500+ one, does the 50 move rule count? I mean, you are technically attempting to win by normal means...


Unfortunately not. In the past, FIDE implemented 75- or even 100-move extensions in certain situations, for example queen vs. two bishops. However, these days it is a fixed 50 moves. This is because all endgames that require over 50 moves involve seemingly random moves that are impossible to find by humans in OTB play.

21st June 2009, 05:25pm
#16
by Triple_A
Texas United States
Member Since: Apr 2009
Member Points: 1613

what about  2 pawns + King vs. King ! i have rarely seen this b4 .-----

21st June 2009, 05:34pm
#17
by SirDavid
United States
Member Since: Jan 2009
Member Points: 857

"i have rarely seen this b4 .----- "

Off topic, but I doubt you've ever seen it before. That position is impossible since Black's only legal last move was Kb8-a8 and in that situation the pawn can't be at a7 (if it was, Black would have been in check from the pawn after the move before as well, which is illegal). It's not important, but I just found your choice of words coupled with the position somewhat ironic and thought others may find it funny as well.

21st June 2009, 05:39pm
#18
by idosheepallnight
United States
Member Since: Nov 2008
Member Points: 3798

The hardest forced checkmate is this position:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Someday in the far future it may be possible for a computer to "solve" chess. In that case a computer will calculate all variations possible with a forced checkmate in every variation effectively "solving chess".

So therefore this is the hardest mate, albet its not yet (or perhaps/probably never will be) solved. However, that doesnt stop us from trying every day :>

21st June 2009, 05:43pm
#19
by Triple_A
Texas United States
Member Since: Apr 2009
Member Points: 1613

well your your right about that i have rarely seen it before , but like what about this mate- Queen + Rook + King vs. King      Checkmate in the middle of the board-

21st June 2009, 05:44pm
#20
by Flipperbw
United States
Member Since: Jul 2008
Member Points: 27
idosheepallnight wrote:

The hardest forced checkmate is this position:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Someday in the far future it may be possible for a computer to "solve" chess. In that case a computer will calculate all variations possible with a forced checkmate in every variation effectively "solving chess".

So therefore this is the hardest mate, albet its not yet (or perhaps/probably never will be) solved. However, that doesnt stop us from trying every day :>


I'd bet the computations will find that best play ends in a draw.

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