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IncrediBill vs zrylam (with kibitzers)

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Mainline_Novelty

hey...isn't black just rounding up white's d6 pawn?!

21...Bf8 22.Rfd1 Rc8! (tempoing the bishop) 23.Ba3 (or 23.Rac1) 23...Rc6

You can also insert BXN at any time.

cobra91
kid_of_chess wrote:

hey...isn't black just rounding up white's d6 pawn?!

21...Bf8 22.Rfd1 Rc8! (tempoing the bishop) 23.Ba3 (or 23.Rac1) 23...Rc6

You can also insert BXN at any time.


 No. 

21...Bf8  22.Rfd1 Rc8? is met by 23.Bb4 Rc6  24.Ba5.  And BxN would be a terrible trade for Black, not only giving up the bishop pair but also handing over Black's most active piece.

ScarredEyes

Wow the discussion is getting interesting, more people are coming in...maybe I'd better keep my silence =)

cobra91

Btw, if I had Black here I would probably try 21...e4, although I haven't really analyzed the position (too lazy for that). My idea, though, would be to meet 22.Nd4 with Bd5, or 22.Ne1 with f5. Of course, I'm not sure how well that will hold up under scrutiny.

IncrediBill

Looks like the battle over the d6-pawn is temporarily being put on hold.  I could continue with my plan to bring the Rook over to the d1 square, however,  I do not like the idea of @zrylam pushing his b-pawn up the b4 square.  That move would cut off my ability to move my Queen to that square to support my Bishop and it would also cut off an exit route for my Bishop.  On top of all that, he will be making in-roads into my territory that will interfere with my pawn movement (of the a & b pawns) and will be hindering the movements of my other pieces

I am thinking that the best response to his 21...a5 move is to play 22.b4.  If he exchanges, then it will improve my postition.  If he pushes the a-pawn then it will leave his b-pawn in a weak postition.  I can hold off on my Rook move till he plays his bf8 move.  Unless someone can come up with something different, I think that 22.b4 will be the move that I will make.  I will make it official tomorrow night.

ScarredEyes
This my argument against 22.b4
ScarredEyes

Sorry let me correct myself - The position is mostly unclear after 22.b4. Some go into Black's favour, some into White. I haven't covered all the possibilities, mind - im tired. But I still think despite the lack of demonstrative lines to look at, I think Black will still end up slightly better.

stubborn_d0nkey

In your big blue line, why doesn't white take the bishop on move 11? Also if the queen goes to d3, black can pin the queen and the knight with the pawn

IncrediBill

Nice lines and analysis by @ScarredEyes, it is very much appreciated.  Looks like the game can go in many directions still, so nothing is guaranteed.  For now, it looks like there is no objection to my idea of pushing my up my b-pawn and blocking @zrylams advancing pawns on the 'a' & 'b' files ( See comment # 112 for my logic for this move).

So my official move is . . . . .22.b4

ScarredEyes

I swear I posted here that stubborn_d0nkey's ideas are good..they are...and I found a refutation for e4, as well as an interesting knight sacrifice ending up with White having 1 piece too short for a good compensation...but d0nkey's idea is correct until I can show a damning refutation. Bringing up de ol' anaalysis board...

Aaand I can't find it anymore =( Ah well, I'll just wait until Black moves, then I'll start again

ScarredEyes

@zyrlam Personally, I liked your position better...I've always been a fan of latent aggression. However, you've just traded your most powerful piece for a knight that could barely get anywhere. It needs at least 4 tempi to get to a good position without obstructing the d-file, which would end up with a bad position.

That would've been a fair exchange...if you can take advantage of the doubled pawns. i.e. going into an endgame. I'm not sure if that's sufficient compensation for exchanging a very active bishop for a knight that's blocked in by your pawns that aren't going anywhere anytime soon, and the counterplay associated with using too many tempi with relocating the knight. If I remember correctly, your dominance of the light squares were very annoying, since they made me rethink so many different lines.

I suggest 23.Kxh8!!, removing any means of Black producing counterplay by assassinating the figurehead. It's waaay stronger than 23.gxf3, the second best move in this position.

IncrediBill

Always good comments and interpretations by @ScarredEyes (see comment #119).  As much as I would like to somehow get my King all the way over to the other side of the board and let the two Kings fight it out 'Mano a Mano' by playing 23.Kxh8, I think I will have no choice but to play 23.gxf3 and avenge my faithful steed.

While @zrylam may be giving up a Bishop for a Knight (I also prefer to have Bishops in an end game) he has cracked the walls of my fortress and exposed my King.  Worse than that, he has doubled up my pawns, again, . . . . for the third time this game . . . . arrrrrrrrrgh!!!!!!

If anyone can come up with a different option, it would be greatly appreciated.  However, I have a feeling that I will have no choice but to eventually lock-in the gxf3 move tomorrow.

ScarredEyes

I believe gxf3 is forced. The bishop is still on the same diagonal, and you have no threat so there are no opportunities to be gained by taking advantage of the extra tempo. It's even controlling the d1 square. An alternative may be an immediate bxa5, with a follow-up of a rook-lift to a3 with the a1 Rook (which may be slow) or a follow-up of a6 and Ba5 or even simply, Bb6. Both, however, seem very slow (with the exception of the risky Bb6), and in the time it takes to do that is enough time for Black to play Bf8 and Bxf8.

IncrediBill

As I already anticipated in Post #120 on Page 6,  I think I have no choice but to recapture the Bishop and avenge my Knight.  It seems that @ScarredEyes concurrs with me. 

Therefore my official move is . . . . 23.gxf3

John_D

I think best is to take with Bxb4 since it gives the possibility later to attak the Q of black.

stubborn_d0nkey

I like taking with the queen better and then continue by putting pressure on the b pawn (if the queen is supported by a rook, white can play a4 without black being able to take the pawn) this would ultimately stretch out black's defenses (defending the b pawn and preventing the d pawn from advancing) to the point of cracking in (at least one front.)

It will also give the queen more freedom, defending the d pawn would no longer be her primary concern, a rook could relieve and she could jump in if and when needed

Taking with the bishop would leave only the d pawn as a concern for black, and white cant really make any progress if only focusing on that. 

IncrediBill

Taking the b4 pawn with either my Queen or Bishop both have pros and cons.  Often times in chess whenever you make a move that creates an advantage in one area, it sometimes creates a weakness in another.

If I capture the b4-pawn with my Queen, then I open the door for @zrylam to move his Bishop to the h6 square. If I capture the b4-pawn with my Bishop, then I move further away from the centre of the board and towards the corner where I am more restricted  ( I would prefer to keep my Bishop on the a7/e3 diagonal.)

Fortunately, I do not have to do either.  I am only down a pawn, so I do not necessarily have to immediately recapture.  Also, the b4-pawn is not going anywhere, I can always recapture it on a latter move.

So for now I think the best thing to do would be to make a positional move and prepare for some future attacks.  So my official move is . . . .  24.Rad1

stubborn_d0nkey

I think you made a mistake, not in not recapturing, but in which rook to move to d1.

IncrediBill
stubborn_d0nkey wrote:

I think you made a mistake, not in not recapturing, but in which rook to move to d1.


 I know.  I debated back and forth over which one.  There were pros and cons on both sides.  I don't want to go into too much detail until @zrylam makes his move, but a little later in the game I will go into my logic behind my choice.

However, one reason behind my choice was that the a1-Rook was on the same diagonal as @zrylam's Bishop.  If he pushed his pawns up, then my Rook would be under attack and I would have to move it anyway, might as well move it now and save some tempo.

ScarredEyes

I personally don't feel as though a mistake has been made. Looking at it, Rfd1 signifies that white wants to control the c file too...where in this, White wants to control the e file. One thing that strikes me is that White probably will never control the c-file - in fact, I bet a tactic's lurking out there to exchange Black's b-rook for White's ac-rook, the better rook, if he put it on the c-file. And you can prob tell the difference.

I see another advantage...but I think that it might be White's trump card in all of this rook-movement, so I'll keep it quiet for now. Suffice to say, Black will find it hard to hold on to the extra material, and he must know it...one idea might be that it's to remove the possibility of adding another defender of the d-pawn.

What else was the b4 pawn controling? The a5 square, which is the same diagonal as the BQueen. An odd idea is to push the two b-pawns, and use them as shields and rams while the d7 rook blockades the d pawn. Ra8-Ra4 is in the air, with a follow-up of Qa5...and White's lack of g-pawn, along with the possible sacrifice of an e5-e4 push to deflect the f3-pawn from protecting the g4 square, which the rook can use for checks...

 

I know I'm jumping at shadows. But a kingside pawn storm + queenside rook + misplaced White pieces (Hard to get to kingside for protecting the king) is screaming at me now, from Black's perspective. White's possible control of the e-file makes that pawn storm so much harder, since the e5-e4 pawn will not be protected well when pushed (light square so bishop can't support, e7 protected to prevent Re7) without an extra tempo.

Sorry I didn't give an opinion for this move, IncrediBill...just didn't know what to do back then, and I was busy. Good luck. And take my suggestions with a bag of salt Undecided

 

EDIT: And stubborn_d0nkey...If a4, then bxa4 and White has not enough pieces to attack that weakness if Black simple then plays b3. I think that this is winning for Black, and here's my argument why:

The queenside rook will protect the base, a4, whilst it will be too costly to attack b3. Not only that, but Black can afford to lose both for the d-pawn, since Black has a pawn majority on the kingside, and to make matters worst, it will be effectively a 2 v 4 pawn-wise. In any case, Black's bishop is going to attack it, and White will lose material trying to get rid of the a-b pawns whilst trying to defend the d pawn. In other words, by playing a4, you'd have given Black with 2 connected passers, far worse than the d pawn that Black blockaded, far easier to defend (since its connected and will take 3 tempi for a rook, or 2 for a queen, to capture uncontested) and in essence far more valuable than White's d pawn.

If Bxa4 before a4, though...I wouldn't know. Ra8-Rxa4 (or Ra4) will drive away the bishop, and before you know it, White may lose the critical defender that prevents any material to be lost.