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Please Help Me understand this concept

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DonkeyShark

Hello everyone, I'm posting my first game analysis here.  This is the first game I've played on this site.  I'm terrible with no formal training (I don't even know the openings yet - to do list) so please, I beg of your patience.  I submitted this game to the game analyzer, and it pretty well told me that I suck at chess (albeit gently of course). None the less, I think I grasp most of the mistakes it found so far except for this one (I'm playing the black peices and can not castle)...  on 11. Rxe2 Ne7?! the game analyzer says "INACCURACY" and suggests 11... Bxd5.  I don't get it though.  If Bxd5 then 12. exd5 Nf6 13. c3 Nf5 and suddenly things look much worse from my understanding.  White now has a passed pawn which is protected by his rook on an open file that is also chomping at my king.  He can protect it with c4 and he can severly limit both of my knights mobility with f6.  This game seems all but lost to me already.  The "INACCURATE" line I chose of 11... Ne7 allowed me to trade my inactive knight for his strong night, move my king off the dangerous d file and activate my rook on that same d file.  How is this not a better move? 

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.  If you wish to comment on my 20 some odd other bloopers, that's fine too, but I'm really struggling with this concept.


DonkeyShark

The_Chess_Ninja

I think this (villain) guy and you made a bunch of errors. Still pretty good for a first game. 

khpa21

imo your choice of ...Ne7 is best; I just don't believe that Black is very well-coordinated in the computer's line. What's their plan?

MrDurdan

After 11...Bxd5 12.exd5 Black is better.  

White is under developed and the d pawn would not be passed (In chess, a passed pawn is a pawn with no opposing pawns to prevent it from advancing to the eighth rank, i.e. there are no opposing pawns in front of it on the same file nor on an adjacent file)  In this position the Rook wouldn't be defending the pawn and would only be on a half open file.  The only way to kick your is playing c3 since it is on a different colored square than his Bishop.  If White plays c3 trying to kick you Knight and defend the pawn via the Rook it only weakens his castled position and doesn't help his development.  As for you thought of Ne7 allowed you to trade your bad Knight for his Active Knight - I'm not sure I agree.  His Knight isn't that strong, while it is on an active square it can easily be kicked or captured right away (It may look strong with the pawn covering)  

 

I would advise against Queen trades early on (especially if your King isn't castled.  After White plays QxQ and you play KxQ you have lost the right to castle thus putting your King in the center for a long time to come and a King in the center is usually an easy target.  

1...d6? - IS WAY TO PASSIVE FOR MY TASTE (it is the first move but I like to at least challenge the center or play on the wings.  I would suggest 1...d5 - challenging the center right away (Queens Gambit) or 1...Nf6 (King's Indian) - Both are very strong lines against d4.  Unless you know the 1...d6 lines I would stick to main lines (and move onto obscure lines later).  Also try not to bring your King into the action unless ABSOLUTELY NEEDED or in an endgames (when most of the minor pieces are off the board and the King can move freely)

orangehonda

The primary idea missing here (from other posts) is that white doesn't have to capture on e7 immediatly.  What's probably confusing you is your position seems fine after 12.Nxe7 Kxe7... and if you thought so you'd be completely right so don't worry.  The problem though is white has no reason to play 12.Nxe7.

But don't be discouraged, assuming a capture (or even re-capture) is a bad habit of most amatuer players and even catches the best of us from time to time.  There are no good reasons for white to take on e7, it trades his strong knight that white's invested a few moves in for a bad knight that has only 1 move invested in it (it's useful to count such things when the players are still in the phase of the game where pieces are being developed).

White also has tactical ideas on the d file (noticing the white rook and black king on the same file, regardless of how many pieces are inbetween them, is absolutely necessary in any game).  Taking on e7 immediately defuses those threats.

I put this into my computer and white plays 12.f4 instead, causing general headaches with tactical ideas centered around the e file and the exposed knight on d4. Again, rest assured that the moment white played 12.Nxe7 instead black's position was 100% fine.

The 2nd idea missing is that after 11...Bxd5  12.exd5 white's pawn on d5 is liable to become weak (it's far advanced which is a liability in an endgame) and it's already somewhat annoying to his bishop.  A pawn stuck on the same color as it's bishop is nothing but a nusince.  If white played c4 to protect the d5 pawn... it isn't a bad move but it is ugly.  White should only play a move like c4 if he believes there is compensation for a move like this that limits his bishop's mobility.  This is a more sublte concept that you shouldn't feel bad about it not being recognizable right now.  Also (as noted above) it's not a passed pawn.

Hope that helps.

MrDurdan
orangehonda wrote:

The primary idea missing here (from other posts) is that white doesn't have to capture on e7 immediatly.  What's probably confusing you is your position seems fine after 12.Nxe7 Kxe7... and if you thought so you'd be completely right so don't worry.  The problem though is white has no reason to play 12.Nxe7.

But don't be discouraged, assuming a capture (or even re-capture) is a bad habit of most amatuer players and even catches the best of us from time to time.  There are no good reasons for white to take on e7, it trades his strong knight that white's invested a few moves in for a bad knight that has only 1 move invested in it (it's useful to count such things when the players are still in the phase of the game where pieces are being developed).

White also has tactical ideas on the d file (noticing the white rook and black king on the same file, regardless of how many pieces are inbetween them, is absolutely necessary in any game).

I put this into my computer and white plays 12.f4 instead, causing general headaches with tactical ideas centered around the e file and the exposed knight on d4. Again, rest assured that the moment white played 12.Nxe7 instead black's position was 100% fine.

The 2nd idea missing is that after 11...Bxd5  12.exd5 white's pawn on d5 is liable to become weak (it's far advanced which is a liability in an endgame) and it's already somewhat annoying to his bishop.  A pawn stuck on the same color as it's bishop is nothing but a nusince.  If white played c4 to protect the d5 pawn... it isn't a bad move but it is ugly.  White should only play a move like c4 if he believes there is compensation for a move like this that limits his bishop's mobility.  This is a more sublte concept that you shouldn't feel bad about it not being recognizable right now.  Also (as noted above) it's not a passed pawn.

Hope that helps.

ALL GOOD POINTS.

DonkeyShark

Wow, thanks for all the help guys.  It's starting to make more sense.  I'm very new to chess.  Well, my dad taught me how the peices move when I was a child and I've played a few games over the years, but I know nothing about all these standard defenses that evereyone uses.  I'm confident that I'll be a solid player with some education though.  I have a degree in mathematics and played poker professionally for over 10 years, so I think chess is right up my alley.  Now I just need to learn how to really play :)

MrDurdan

Keep playing, analyze Grandmaster games and see if you can understand the reasoning behind the moves and see their plans (both short and long term).  If you have a favorite chess player I would suggest studying his/her games and mold your playing style after theirs.  When you start out it is rough, keep fighting and never give up even if your down.  And always remeber your opponents (even if rated much higher than you) can also make mistakes.

This is from my friends blog, I will post the game along with it too.  He is currently rated 1554 (regular) and 3 months ago was playing about 1200.

"This is a game I should have lost! The other player gained a significant advantage after I lost a piece because of an imaginary fork I saw... This is also my first blog! The point of this blog is that if you don't take advantage of your opponent and punish them, they might find a brilliant idea, like I did! hope you enjoy. This is my first post ever. Why I made this blunder? I cannot really say, but I can say I was under time pressure. Whether this contributed or not, I have no idea."

orangehonda
DonkeyShark wrote:

Wow, thanks for all the help guys.  It's starting to make more sense.  I'm very new to chess.  Well, my dad taught me how the peices move when I was a child and I've played a few games over the years, but I know nothing about all these standard defenses that evereyone uses.  I'm confident that I'll be a solid player with some education though.  I have a degree in mathematics and played poker professionally for over 10 years, so I think chess is right up my alley.  Now I just need to learn how to really play :)


I like to think of math and music as relateable to chess... in that they're all non-verbal skills.  I think progression in each is somewhat comparable, and best to think of chess like any other skill.  You have to practice it to get better, and no one started out knowing it all.

BirdBrain

I have a question - did you seek to trade queens early?  There are many setups that Black adopts with this ...d6/...e5 pawn structure in 1. d4 setups.  1...d6 isn't terrible, but you are giving White space.  I ask because the way you followed up didn't make as much sense to me.  If you like these pawn structures, either look up Old Indian Games, or King's Indian games.  Both are complex, and offer you good chances for a win!

TomBarrister

The analysis engine isn't always correct.  Your move isn't much better or worse than the one it recommends.

DonkeyShark
BirdBrain wrote:

I have a question - did you seek to trade queens early?  There are many setups that Black adopts with this ...d6/...e5 pawn structure in 1. d4 setups.  1...d6 isn't terrible, but you are giving White space.  I ask because the way you followed up didn't make as much sense to me.  If you like these pawn structures, either look up Old Indian Games, or King's Indian games.  Both are complex, and offer you good chances for a win!


I wouldn't say that I sought the early trading of queens, but I don't mind it either.  I preferred to have him back off the bishop and gain a tempo, but I don't mind playing with or without the queen.  I don't think I'm good enough yet to really know whether or not that hurts me.  I'd probably estimate I play better without queens on board, it's one more major worry off the board.

DonkeyShark
nulesus wrote:

Don't always trust that computer. You'll learn that by experience. It's supposedly rated at 2500 for premium members, but I don't believe it is always consistent. I probably would have played c6 and expected Ne3. I don't like to trade without gaining advantage if I don't have to. Then you could follow with Nf6 or something.


Thanks.  Interesting point about not trading unless you gain an advantage.  I might try to incorporate that into my game some.  I'm usually fairly aggressive, but perhaps that's part of my problem.

aspen101

This  is where the colective genius; of the creators of the analyst software; comes into play.