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Super GM's and inferior(?) openings


  • 22 months ago · Quote · #1

    rooperi

    Ok, I have some issues. This is an engine game, I'm White, using Stockfish. I dont claim to be some super centaur, I pretty much played what the engine said, after following the 2012 Nakamura-Onischuk game up to move 10.

    But even then, it seems pretty clear that White's position is pretty grim, why would a super GM play such a dubious line against a strong opponent? Where did Stockfish go wrong (if it did).



  • 22 months ago · Quote · #2

    learningthemoves

    Just took a quick look and on move 22 white has a move that wins instantly.

    (22.Bxc6)

  • 22 months ago · Quote · #3

    rooperi

    learningthemoves wrote:

    Just took a quick look and on move 22 white has a move that wins instantly.

    (22.Bxc6)

    22 ... Rf1+

  • 22 months ago · Quote · #4

    learningthemoves

    rooperi wrote:
    learningthemoves wrote:

    Just took a quick look and on move 22 white has a move that wins instantly.

    (22.Bxc6)

    22 ... Rf1+

    The 22 ... Rf1+Doesn't matter because there's a flight square and if black recaptures with the queen, it loses to white's recapture with the queen due to the pin and the very next move is Qxb7#.

  • 22 months ago · Quote · #5

    hicetnunc

    I think Nakamura was just trying to surprise his opponent and thought that he could get away with his opening choice, even if Onishuk played a strong continuation. Maybe he assessed the position out of the opening as 'playable'.

  • 22 months ago · Quote · #6

    rooperi

    learningthemoves wrote:
    rooperi wrote:
    learningthemoves wrote:

    Just took a quick look and on move 22 white has a move that wins instantly.

    (22.Bxc6)

    22 ... Rf1+

    The 22 ... Rf1+Doesn't matter because there's a flight square and if black recaptures with the queen, it loses to white's recapture with the queen due to the pin and the very next move is Qxb7#.

    You're saying 22 ... Rf1+ 23 Ke2?

  • 22 months ago · Quote · #7

    rooperi

    hicetnunc wrote:

    I think Nakamura was just trying to surprise his opponent and thought that he could get away with his opening choice, even if Onishuk played a strong continuation. Maybe he assessed the position out of the opening as 'playable'.

    Ah, well, I've been playing the Vienna for a long time, and when I 1st saw this game I thought 4 exd5 was a cool new option. I guess I'll just stay away from that, lol

  • 22 months ago · Quote · #8

    learningthemoves

    Yes, Ke2 is the flight square but there are a couple of moves first. I added the moves to the diagram below and annotated beginning move 22.
     
    (Black can't recapture because then he'd lose his queen to 23.Qxc6 with the threat of mate soon to follow.
     
    Black cannot take the rook on f1 because the queen is there to recapture so it would only be an exchange.
     
    If black decides to take the bishop anyway and you recapture the queen with your queen and black then takes the rook on f1, then, yes, you can then safely do ke2 with Qxb7# next move.  See diagram (just click on the blue variation move 22 in the diagram to see the annotation:
     
     
  • 22 months ago · Quote · #9

    rooperi

    learningthemoves wrote:
    Yes, Ke2 is the flight square .....
     
     
     



  • 22 months ago · Quote · #10

    learningthemoves

    If 22 ...Rxf1+, then 23. Qxf1 so no need for ke2.

  • 22 months ago · Quote · #11

    rooperi

    learningthemoves wrote:

    If 22 ...Rxf1, then 23. Qxf1 so no need for ke2.

    if 23 Qxf1, the 23 ....QxB becomes possible.

    Trust me, all the engines agree, 22 Bxc6 is a lemon, Stockfish Eval is -6.0

  • 22 months ago · Quote · #12

    eddysallin

    maybe #25.kd2,bf6.rxp,kxr,rb1+,ka8,bxn+ ?

  • 22 months ago · Quote · #13

    rooperi

    eddysallin wrote:

    maybe #25.kd2,bf6.rxp,kxr,rb1+,ka8,bxn+ ?

    Stockfish gives:

    25 Kd2 Bh4 26 Re2 Rxe3 27 Rxe3 Qh6 28 Rf1 Re8 -1.93

  • 22 months ago · Quote · #14

    ajian

    by the way I think 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.f4 d5 4.exd5 should be met with 4...e4 

  • 22 months ago · Quote · #15

    eddysallin

    It appears the top 5/6 G.Ms play at one level and others are falling by the wayside.

  • 22 months ago · Quote · #16

    rooperi

    Moses2792796 wrote:

    The more I look at the position after move ten, the more I can't understand Nakamura's thinking.  You'd be crazy to think that black was anything but winning in that position.

    BTW, it's not the first time, he's played that 3 or 4 times before.


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