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Position against a 2191 - draw?


  • 10 months ago · Quote · #1

    ChessvsAliens

    On this sunday, i went to play a rapid tournament nearby. being rated 1347, i played on board 3 in the 3rd round , against a 2191. needless to say ( :P ) i played excellently , and a bit carelessly at moments, but got the following position , clearly winning for me :

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    ( Position might be incorrect by a bit, but position of kings and material balance and files of pawns are correct , ranks can be incorrect , with error margin +- 1 file. )

    i was quite proud of this position, but not of the situation : i had 10s on the clock , while he had 27s, with no increment. i continued to move, and faster than him, but not enough : I timed out, when he had 10s.

     

    Now, here comes the question : could i have claimed a draw in this position ? some 1700s and 1800s advised me that this position contained play, therefore it could not be claimed. i regret my decision not to claim it, but the important thing is to learn. please, anyone let me know the rules in this position.

     

    for those interested : i finished the tourney on 6/9 and came 28th overall ( shared with 1710 ) ( first in U - 15 ), in a field of 300 players and 82 rateds ( beating many 1600s and 1700s to it :P )

    please let me know.

  • 10 months ago · Quote · #2

    myk99

    From what I know - Claiming a draw has to be claimed when your time is under 1 minute - you obviously met that.

    And- you must have insufficient loosing chances. - To me that would be like if you had K vs. K+B  or K+N - I don't know if you can claim insufficient loosing chances with that many (or any) pawns on the board.

  • 10 months ago · Quote · #3

    ChessvsAliens

    it is 2 minutes, and draws are claimed in R + P v/s R too. could'nt the rook win in that then? i think it is theoretical draws.

  • 10 months ago · Quote · #4

    ChessvsAliens

    oh, and BTW ALL RATINGS IN FIDE

  • 10 months ago · Quote · #5

    FancyKnight

    I really doubt you can claim a draw.

  • 10 months ago · Quote · #6

    ChessvsAliens

    any1 can tell me the EXACT rules??

  • 10 months ago · Quote · #7

    myk99

    Personally I think the Rook is winning in thie EXACT position - but I dont know if this helps you in a different position or not. here are some of my thoughts on the lines, not checked by computer so they may be off.



  • 10 months ago · Quote · #8

    Tartarus_BW

    2... d5???? 3. Rh7#  

     

    Discovered attack on the Rook is definitely not working ;)

  • 10 months ago · Quote · #9

    MartinJaeggi

    A winning position is no reason to claim a draw. Only in endings with not enough material to win (both sides surely) you can claim a draw. This rule can be very tricky: K+2N v/s K is a draw by normal circumstances, K+2N v/s K+P is not (the side with 2N can force a mate in some positions, the side with P can win in some positions or by luck).

    The correct way to claim a draw is to stop the clock and to show the position to a refery. But if it isn't a draw, you pay this with a part of your time on the clock, this means eventualy a loss by time.

  • 10 months ago · Quote · #10

    nebunulpecal

    You couldn't claim a draw there. Clearly you have the better position (you're White, right?), but there is still quite a lot to play, that is, you have plenty of chances to screw it up.

  • 10 months ago · Quote · #11

    myk99

    Tartarus_BW wrote:

    2... d5???? 3. Rh7#  

     

    Discovered attack on the Rook is definitely not working ;)

    ha!  didnt think about the mate threat! good point

  • 10 months ago · Quote · #12

    Irontiger

    After 1.Re7, the best try I can see for the draw is ...f5 - 1...f5 2.Rxe6 fxe4 with a draw maybe (the black king is in a bad position though).

     

    You can certainly not claim a draw here. A patzer would lose taking either side.

  • 10 months ago · Quote · #13

    dervich

    The question is that, in the EXACT given position, you had the game won (if there was time, i will got to this later) but, if the position changed a bit, it´s only a slight advantage, there is even doubt if white could won.

    Anyway, there´s a lot of things to happen in that game before the draw claim could be adressed to the referee: To do such a thing, you must obtained a position where, with the stoped clocks, you can prove to the referee you will never loose, no matter what happens...and that was not the case.

    I once had a position in a slow game against a 2250 FIDE, K+R+B+P against the same, i could not call the referee but i was getting short on time, so i thought of sacrifice my rook for his bishop and pawn (to obtain a position where i could claim draw) but things backfired and i had to play a K+R+B against K+B+P where i lost by mate when he had 11s on the clock!...  

    Besides,things where not so simple in your particular case: with those times on the clock, no increment and enough material on board, your opponent KNEW he would always win by time, no matter what both of you moved (given he was not mated, of course...)

    Anyway, great tournament on your part, considering your age and your rankWink

  • 10 months ago · Quote · #14

    XXL-extrem

    it isent draw. Its an clearly win position here by now. But in the game y dont can claim a draw. The oponent only can win on time, or timeblunder moves. 1.re7 f5 2. rxe6 fxe4 lost too sorry. y will get the pawn on d6 soon and the endgame is over. white wins! Best wishes XXL ;)

  • 10 months ago · Quote · #15

    Irontiger

    XXL-extrem wrote:

    it isent draw. Its an clearly win position here by now. But in the game y dont can claim a draw. The oponent only can win on time, or timeblunder moves. 1.re7 f5 2. rxe6 fxe4 lost too sorry. y will get the pawn on d6 soon and the endgame is over. white wins! Best wishes XXL ;)

    For your information, the following position that White could reach (if he does not play carefully) is a draw.The exchange is rarely the guarantee of a win, and never the guarantee of an easy win.

     

  • 10 months ago · Quote · #16

    zborg

    Irontiger wrote:

    After 1.Re7, the best try I can see for the draw is ...f5 - 1...f5 2.Rxe6 fxe4 with a draw maybe (the black king is in a bad position though).

     

    You can certainly not claim a draw here. A patzer would lose taking either side.

    2) Rxe6, fxe4  3) dxe4 looks like it might be winning chances for white.

    Black remaining pawn seems stuck, and how will the black's king get back into the game?  The rook will cut him off.

  • 10 months ago · Quote · #17

    kantifields

    You can't claim a draw because you have losing chances.  To prove this, put that position into a strong computer.  I'd bet you would lose it.

    A positional draw is one where a C player could draw a GM.  I doubt this is one of those poistions.

    But you could have asked.

  • 10 months ago · Quote · #18

    Irontiger

    zborg wrote:
    Irontiger wrote:

    After 1.Re7, the best try I can see for the draw is ...f5 - 1...f5 2.Rxe6 fxe4 with a draw maybe (the black king is in a bad position though).

    2) Rxe6, fxe4  3) dxe4 looks like it might be winning chances for white.

    Black remaining pawn seems stuck, and how will the black's king get back into the game?  The rook will cut him off.

    The remaining pawn does not want to move. In an ideal world, black could just wait and protect the pawn.

    Though here we are not in an ideal world, and a bit of toying with the endgame tablebases makes me pretty pessimistic for Black. But again, not an "obviously won" position.

  • 10 months ago · Quote · #19

    MSC157

    I think you can claim a draw (if you lose on time) only when you can't get mated by any legal sequence of moves.

    Not really sure what happens in case of 2N.



  • 10 months ago · Quote · #20

    kantifields

    A draw can be claimed in the following position:


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